BRITISH NATURISM

British Naturism

Thank you to all those who have participated in the discussions here. THIS POST IS NOW CLOSED FOR COMMENTS However if you wish to say something to me please email me at Ladygod1va@hotmail.co.uk. Thank You.

I have been meaning to write about BN for some time now, so thought I should get on and do it!!

What I am about to write is only my opinion  and understanding, you are welcome to comment, agree or disagree, any form of discussion can only help in better understanding.

(I have to acknowledge that this is a joint effort with my partner as at time I have to be helped!!)

The problem I see in the UK is that there are far too many independent organisations supporting naturism through clubs, social gatherings, social networks, personal blogs, membership sites, holiday services and so on whilst there is a very small target audience who are openly able to enjoy the naturism life for various personal reasons or beliefs.  This is the same at international level, where countries are represented by their national organisations but the national organisations have the following of only a very small percentage of naturists  in their country.

The number of naturists in the UK probably grows or shrinks over the years in relation to the population numbers aged between 40-60.   This is not affected by immigration because the general UK naturists numbers do not reflect the percentage of foreign nationals in the community.  Contrary to popular belief the percentage of foreign nationals in the UK is very small however in some areas it is obviously more visible than others.

If you reference the document below at the national statistics office you will see that we are enjoying the highest numbers of naturists in the UK probably because the population aged between 40-60 is the highest for a long time due to the baby booms of the 60s (not that I would know much about it !!).

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pop0610.pdf

So… I see it as now being the best harvest of suitable naturism candidates for the naturist organisations to increase their numbers.  However I don’t believe that it is being done successfully because there is just too much choice for what is still a limited number of naturists.

There are many more naturists amongst the general public who just do not have any reason to join any club or organisation because their form of naturism doesn’t require it.  They are busy people who go on naturists’ holidays when possible, go nude once in a while, enjoy it and treat it as a thrill which they feel is not possible to extend to their normal lives.

Looking at the statistics you will see that greater number of females are opting not to have children until later into their 30s, these females are quite confident and go topless and some obviously go nude but mostly when on holidays, so why are they not more visible in the naturist circles?  I would suggest the following to be the main issues;

  1. Because being seen topless in the local park by anyone they know is likely to cause them embarrassment.
  2. The UK naturist movement still have a seedy association with sexual activities and perverts of one kind or another.
  3. Lack of role models, someone has to make a start and others could follow.
  4. Lack of understanding of the law
  5. Personal or religious beliefs

If the UK naturism doesn’t progress during these few years, then in another 20 years or so, it will suffer serious reduction in numbers unless the UK becomes more like some of the European countries in terms of their attitude to nudity and naturism.  My fear is that with pressure from the USA, the religious righteous, influences from the Eastern countries, the UK naturism could suffer.

I am very fortunate, I have the confidence and support to do almost whatever and whenever I wish to do when it comes to nudity/naturism.   I enjoy my freedom but it is not as free as I would like it to be.  Therefore for the past year or so, I have been promoting naturism to try and make some difference if not for me then for those that are younger than me.

So far I have attracted a large number of people from around the world, but a large percentage of them are already naturists and they are just glad to find someone who is open minded and willing to discuss the subject.

There needs to be 100s of people like me, girls and boys who don’t need to go around demonstrating about lack of freedom etc.. but  just do it (sorry Nike!!).

If we are to encourage these people to try and do what they believe in without fear or reprisal, we need more than just clubs, web sites, social networks etc,  because I don’t believe all that works on people who fall into the category I mentioned above.

They need the support of a credible organisation that has the respect of the country’s legal and political and ethical organisations.  This is not my blog or someone’s web site or a few good meaning people who may wish to support naturism.

There needs to be a reason why those who are comfortable going skinny dipping would consider themselves as naturists.  There needs to be more than just middle to old aged people making noises about naturism.   There needs to be something more than what we have now. It is only through increasing the numbers that greater freedom  will come.

The perverts linked to naturism have to be separated from true naturists.

The swingers calling themselves naturists have to be tackled and prevented from making naturism look bad.  If swingers are allowed to get away with calling themselves naturists then everyone who has sex in the nude must be a naturist!!! It is true that SOME naturists might also be swingers.. to them I would suggest that they keep the 2 things different.  It is not logical to say that if you are a swinger you can’t join BN or local club, but it is logical to say that if you try breaking the naturism rules or just good manners then you may not be welcomed there.

In the same way not everyone that has sex is a naturist, it is fair to say that not everyone who is a naturist should be tagged as some sort of pervert but those that link these 2 aspect of life generate mix feelings and don’t help the naturism.

If you support these views also, then you can help to tackle these problems by ;

  • Supporting the national organisation (BN) that has the muscle to do something.
  • Challenge the misrepresentation of naturism wherever you can.
  • Help to address the perverts who spoil it for the majority
  • Join the self help groups that keep the beaches/nude places clean and safe for everyone
  • If you are in it for sex and thrills, then don’t call yourself a naturist, a swinger is the correct name so go ahead and do that.

The biggest problem in the past has been that no one has tackled these issues, I now see some movement, particularly from BN who are best placed to lead on this.  However we the naturists have to believe in BN as  being the leader and support them in this task.  The best way to do so is to become a member of BN and let your friends know that you are a member (whenever possible), this will give you confidence that you are a member of an organisation that is focused on pure naturism and fights all that is unacceptable in naturism.  

So this way.. you become linked to the Good Guys!!  In return the right organisation gets your support and some funds to help towards improving the situation.

In addition to that if you are a member and you run into trouble, you have someone to seek support and guidance from. For example if you are arrested for sunbathing nude in your garden, your local duty solicitor is unlikely to be supportive of your case!!  Whereas if you hold BN membership, you are more likely to be advised correctly and there would be someone who knows the law well enough to keep you out of trouble and media if necessary.

For example.. BN have published the benefits of joining on their web site

http://www.british-naturism.org.uk/pages/pages.asp?page_ID=111

If you decide to join the form is available online

https://www.british-naturism.org.uk/secure/join_us/form_pt1.asp

At present BN are offering £10 reward for introductions, I will be more than happy to return this to you if you put LADYGOD1VA in the membership number (can’t find my number at present) field for the person introducing you.  This is simply to prove to you that I am not doing this to generate funds for myself!

If you are still reading this, it means you have some serious interest in joining BN and hope you do.  It will bring you closer to a group of people that are true to naturism as you and who are willing to support you as long as you are one of the Good Guys 🙂

Post Publication Note:

Some comments below are from people already known to me and even though I don’t agree with some things said below, out of respect and to show that this Blog is not edited, I am going to leave them for you to read.

If you practice naturism and would like someone to talk to or gain guidance and support from then obviously starting with the national authority on the matter (BN) is a good place to start.  I would encourage you to join BN and be part of a fantistic and very supportive group of people that are the British naturists!

166 Responses to “BRITISH NATURISM”

  1. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Hamstead Heath was not ‘put on a back burner’ by BN it was dropped like a hot potato. There were problems we know, but nothing was done by BN to pick up the situation and try to recover it, despite John’s efforts.

    John’s letter to HEN is critical of INF, but so far as I am aware factual. It is not damaging to BN, but rather it attempts to carry out the ‘review’ of INF membership the EC proposed in January at your own bidding, but then did nothing about.

    Sleep well.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Sorry I’ve been following the riots for personal reasons and haven’t had the time to review these comments.
      I agree with Reg, whilst these comments may be valid, it would be best to discuss them elsewhere, as here it doesn’t paint a good picture for BN or NAG. I can confirm that by the comments I get.

      If you’re interested, there have been around 170,000 visitors to this blog and this post has been read over 200 times this week alone.

      I stopped updating this Blog after the exchanges between BN and NAG on this post and have used Twitter/Facebook/other blog to promote naturism/BN which I believe is doing the best it can.

      Over the past year and recently I have been asked by a few well known people to take up a role in the EC which I would love to do if I could see a clear contribution that I can make towards the good of naturism. My main concern has been that all the key characters that I know within naturism are senior/experienced people with their views well established. Unless they see me acting in line with their views, I would spend most of my time trying to justify my actions. As an independent person, I am free to do what I want in terms of promoting naturism wherever I am.

      Like most organisation there is good in having transparency, this can help to reduce suspicion and distrust. This would apply to both NAG and BN. But I don’t think it would be fair to credit NAG with same status as BN, they are not equal and have different roles as far as I can see but being a small organisation there is less publish to make their activities more transparent.

      For NAG, It would be great to see actual self-successes rather than continuous blame being applied on BN for lack of progress on whatever projects NAG has embarked on. From what I’ve read in various papers/arguments, including here, it appears that NAG needs BN for its projects to make progress. I am sure that is NOT the case, but that is how it appears and I DO NOT make this comment as a criticism. Whether you like it or not, the impression that comes out of all this is that NAG tries to bully BN into acting in the way they see right, some people have previously commented to me that they are not too happy with that.

      I think everyone would love to see both organisations doing their own thing and supporting each other where possible, for whatever reasons, this has not been possible in the past, but could we work towards that? If so it would be great for naturism as there is massive amount of energy being wasted on inter organisation feud.

      Reg thank you for your advice to others and I appreciate your understanding. I would like to continue to help promote naturism here and other media that I use. If anyone wants to discuss anything with me please email me, where we can exchange expanded views/idea or better still meet up at the next opportunity in social surrounding that might be more friendly than cold words on a web page or email.

      • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

        Sorry to contradict you Kiran, but with 170,000 followers I need to do it here rather than in private, which I’d prefer.

        NAG does not need BN to continue with its projects. We do have a different strategy however, which is slower because we like to have evidence to support what we say and with our disparity in size, NAG has to be selective about which projects it undertakes.

        One of our projects is The London Question, which is looking at why naturism couldn’t be openly conducted in the capital’s larger parks, in addition to Hampstead Heath. Led by John Paine, he and other volunteers will be going on a fact-finding mission to Munich in September and if anyone would like to know more about that only need to contact either myself or John through the Naturist Action Group website, but before the end of August please.

        The London Question is a project working in parallel with the Hampstead Heath Campaign, who BN is assisting. As indicated in the earlier comments that campaign seems to have come to a halt. Whether it is just a pause or something more final is a matter of opinion, one that I am not going to explore here. But, we in NAG thought we had a co-operative arrangement with BN over this issue. We, in NAG, want to co-operate with BN – we always have done – but co-operation is a two-way street and we have seen very little evidence of it so far.

  2. Duncan Heenan Says:

    You have never told me what The Commercial Manager is ‘actually paid’! You always just deny what I say (based on information received). OK Malcolm, tell me, what IS The Commercial Manager actually paid?

    As for Tracey, she was certainly commuting to the office twice a week when i wa son the EC. Has that changed?

    Anyway, these are the nit pickings which detract from the main point, which is that BN does not devote proper resources to campaigning – which you have admitted yourself. It is why you are overburdened – you do not have the help you need.There is no credit in working yourself to death so that others can have an easy time and play games.

  3. Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

    I am going to give in to the provocation but then I am going to pack and go to bed.

    Hampstead Heath was put on the back burner for very good reasons that are confidential but which John Paine knows. Also working with somebody requires trust and that has been destroyed by his recent poisonous letter in H&E.

    As Reg says this is not the place to sort out these differences but we can not just ignore such damaging and fallacious attacks. They cost us members and time and that prevents us from doing what needs doing. Often the very same things that they say they want!

    • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

      Sorry Malcolm, but minutes from the February EC meeting suggest something completely different. So, please, go on holiday and lets sort this out in another place.

  4. Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

    This is now an old blog, written by Kiran late last year. These latest comments are just repeating old arguments and do neither BN nor NAG any justice.

    Both Malcolm and Duncan have valid points and, with all due respect to Kiran and the rest of you following this blog, this is not the place to sort out these differences.

  5. Duncan Heenan Says:

    BN willing to cooperate with NAG? Where’s the evidence on that?
    I had no response at all to my invitation to you to join NAG in a joint ACPO project. John paine has had virtually no response on The London Question and the Hamstead Heath Campaign.

    NAG is happy to work with anyone who shares its aims, but it takes two to tango.

    As for your ridiculous accuation of anyone trying to damage BN, it simply is not true. If so where’s the evidence. Certainly I have been critical on occasion, but only on issues where criticism is due. I have also been positive when it is justified, and I am allowed to be. It is time BN stopped playing the sort of personality politics which is scaring its members away, and started addressing the issues raised on a factual and logical basis.

  6. Duncan Heenan Says:

    I see you don’t ‘have time’ to cite any evidence of the success of the BN Campaigning. At least that’s consistent, as you never do. I know I am a significant embarassment to BN, because I ask for results and evidence, rather than asurances and bluster.
    If BN is campaiging so hard, where’s the evidence, where are the results. Why doesn’t BN devote proper resources to campaigning?
    I quote from the EC’s own minutes from february this year;
    “2713.05 Campaign Officer Malcolm re-iterated that affordability remains the critical issue.” – and yet it can spend money on fun and games, an ineffecive ‘Commercial Manager’ at £50k p.a.! membership of the useless INF, an under employed office, and paying for a general secretary to drive from home half way across England to the offcie twice a week.
    No money for campaigning? No, it’s no will for campaigning. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

    • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

      Duncan, please stick to facts. I have a flight to catch so I only have time for a very brief and probably incomplete reply.

      Read my articles in BN to get a flavour of what has been done and what has been achieved.

      I have lost count of how many times I have had to tell you what the Commercial Manager is actually paid. Exaggerated claims do not help your case.

      I know that the comment regarding the General Secretary is only part of the picture and I suspect that it is incorrect in other respects. Unfortunately I can’t check now.

      Some of your points are valid but embedding them in distortions and falsehoods makes it harder to act on them, not easier, and it does enormous damage. Without that damage we could afford to do a lot more.

  7. Duncan Heenan Says:

    I’ve already said earier in the thread. I believe BN should be a campaigning organisation, fighting to get the freedom for naturists to live as they wish without having to hide away. BN devotes hardly any resources to campaigning, with the result that naturism has made little or no progress for decades.

    • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

      Speaking as the person at BN principally responsible for campaigning I have a one word reply to that. Nonsense. Unfortunately I don’t have time to waste on countering properly every one of Duncan’s exaggerations, “mistakes” and assumptions stated as if they were facts. He is a significant drain on our resources.

    • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

      Reg Barlow, chairman of NAG, suggested that BN and NAG might be able to merge. I agree with that and I would very much like us to do so. Working together requires trust and there are two members of NAG that put so much effort into damaging BN that there is little prospect of that at present. There are both constructive and destructive ways to bring about change in an organisation. They have made it much more difficult to achieve constructive change but despite that we have made a lot of progress. The attitudes and competence around the EC table has improved immensely since I became a member about 5 years ago.
      I am going to be away most of the next two weeks so it is unlikely that I will be able to respond further for a while.

  8. freewilluk Says:

    Lets hope BN will start to thrive again and the British attitude to Naturism will start to move in the right direction.

    • Duncan Heenan Says:

      I too hope that, and have been doing so for over 30 years. However hope alone isn’t going to do it. It needs a genuinely new approach from BN.
      Last year AANR (the US naturist organisation) left INF as it judged INF to be useless. People will only become or remain mmembers of an organisation if the judge it to be useful:

      The figures for the last 10+ years show the folowing (draw your own conclusions):

      (CC)BN Membership figures as published

      1994 – 19.769 (from BN128, Summer 1996)
      1995 – 19.905 (from BN128, Summer 1996)
      1997 – 19,511 (from BN137, Autumn 1998)
      2000 – 18,524 (from BN 165, Autumn 2005)
      2001 – 18,631 (from BN 165, Autumn 2005)
      2002 – 18,070 (from BN 165, Autumn 2005)
      2003 – 17,534 (from BN 159, Spring 2004 – but see note 1 below)
      2004 – 15,329 (from BN 161, Autumn 2004 – but see note 2 below)
      2005 – 15,898 (from EC Minutes 25 February 2006 – but see note 3 below)
      2006 – 14,955 (from EC Minutes 17 February 2007)
      2007 – 12,315 (from EC Minutes 15 April 2007)
      2008 – 12,627 (from “Naturist Life” briefing on 2008 AGM – but see
      note 4 below)
      2009 – 11,677 ( at 31.12.09, from 2009 Annual report to 2010 AGM]
      2010 – 9,974 (at May 2010 , from EC report in BN185)

      NOTES:

      1 – The 2003 figure given in BN 159 conflicts with one published later
      in BN 165 claiming 16,611 members

      2 – The 2004 figure given in BN 161 conflicts with one published later
      in BN165 claiming 16,138 members

      3 –The 2005 figure from the EC minutes conflicts with one published
      later in BN165 claiming 16,256 members (later revised in BN166 to
      15,856 members

      4 – I believe a somewhat different figure for 2008 membership appeared
      in H&E’s report of the AGM but cannot find the relevant copy at the
      moment

      Figures quoted by Mick Ayers at 2005 AGM:
      The BN Annual Report was then presented by BN Chairman Mick Ayers. He
      admitted that the membership figures quoted in the report were not
      wholly accurate, and that recent database figures showed that new
      memberships in 2005 were actually some 400 below the previously
      reported level. He maintained that the figures up to 2004 were accurate
      however. These showed in graphical form the numbers he had quoted in
      his BN 164 article a couple of months ago.
      Date Total Membership
      31.12.00 18,524
      31.12.01 18,631
      31.12.02 18,070
      31.12.03 16,611
      31.12.04 16,138
      He went on to say that a further examination of the records showed that
      at 7.9.05 BN membership was made up of:
      12,080 people in couples
      3,145 people as singles
      196 non-paying ‘phantom members’ – i.e. free magazine
      recipients etc
      67 non-paying honorary members
      15,488 total membership
      He could not explain this 650 drop in membership during 2005, nor why
      he had claimed it as a sign of success. He said they had had trouble
      with getting statistics out of the database. On the suggestion of Colin
      Gorham, the Report was withdrawn due to the admitted inaccuracies in
      it.

      Quoted by Steve Doerr on URN http://groups.google.com/group/uk.rec.naturist/browse_thread/thread/73a8d668ac045d16/edb4e609665f5dd9?hl=en&

      Here’s what I believe is a rather better series of figures from 2000 on:
      Dec 2000 18524Dec
      2001 18631Dec
      2002 18070Dec
      2003 16611Dec
      2004 16138Dec
      2005 15711Dec
      2006 14768Dec
      2007 13899Dec
      2008 12753Dec
      2009 11677Dec
      2010 11000 (budget estimate)
      Dec 2011 10700 (budget estimate)
      This should not be taken as implying that I think the last two figures will
      be met!

      • freewilluk Says:

        i understand what you mean as im a member too but what would you suggest the new approach from BN should be ?

  9. Robin Says:

    Thanks, Lady G, for your setting up this blog. I would be less than honest if I said I have read all the replies! (But I have spent over half-an-hour going through them.) We all live with the legacy of the past, BN included. But we all need to look forward. BN is there, many people are members, let’s work with, and not against, each other.

    I, too, am frustrated by the creeping body-shame that is infecting our society. As a teacher I have become aware of just how young people are influenced by pop culture, US television, and erotica often used in advertising. The message seems to be that unless you have a ‘perfect’ body, then be ashamed and keep it covered. Also, nudity is for sex or making fun of (e.g. The SImpsons, Friends, etc.) and certainly not normal.

    The often mis-represented Christian aspect concerns me too. I am a Christian, and proud of it. The Bible does not condemn nudity. In fact, nudity is rarely mentioned. How could it be that if God created us (nude), and stated clearly that everything is good, that our bodies could be unacceptable? He calls us ‘perfect’. It is only we who see us as so much less.

    What I do see is that a healthy and normal acceptance that we all have bodies, and that these bodies are perfectly acceptable as they are (young, old, fat, thin, black, brown, ‘white’, male or female), is the best way to a saner society and a better acceptance of each other. There are also clear health benefits to nudity, especially the effect that if your nude body is regularly visible to others then you are probably more inclined to keep yourself fit and healthy than if you always hide behind a layer of clothing. People spend a fortune on clothes; I spend some of my money instead on keeping my body looking OK!

    For me, I am nude whenever possible (warm weather helps!), I do not hide my naturism from others – it is mentioned clearly on my CV, and I look for ways to promote naturism whenever possible. Oh yes, I am a member of BN too, and I look for ways to support BN and other naturist groups. I too look forward to a future where nude is as an acceptable way to dress as any other. Idealist? Maybe. But if we aim for less, we will certainly achieve less. If we aim as high as possible, then achieving slightly less is still very worthwhile.

    Best wishes to all naturists,

    Robin.

  10. juan Says:

    Hi,really you are a lady very pretty,
    The naturism is wonderful.

  11. steve Says:

    I can speak as someone who was quite active in naturism, went away for a few years and have now returned.

    Naturism in the Uk is currently really struggling.

    My wife, 3 kids and I were members of BN in the 90’s and regularly visited clubs on holidays but we moved away from it in about 2000 whilst the kids grew up etc.

    We returned to the ‘scene’ this year and I was astonished at how the movement had gone backwards.

    South Hants, BDOC and Charnwood Acres have all gone. These were excellent family clubs and some of our favourite destinations.

    We made a day visit to our local club where we had been members for 10 years to find the members were the same people, there were hardly any new members and most astonishing was that there were no young families with children at the club.

    In the 90’s there were a dozen youngsters enjoying the play area and pool, including my kids.

    Instead the average age was about 60 and we really run the risk of losing these clubs unless we do something soon.

    BN have had charge during this period and sadly they have failed in my opinion.

  12. Duncan Heenan Says:

    I AM using the reply function. Why the software handles it the way it does is a mystery to me.

    As I said, most of my efforts on behalf of naturism this year have gone in to helping to found NAG ( see http://naturistactiongroup.webs.com/ ).
    This in itself has been very time consuming. I also helped Charlie Blackfield make the short film ‘Breezes without Breeches’ which is now avaiable to all on http://vimeo.com/14464358 . This is now being used widely to promote and explain naturism. i have been campaigning for and supporting Steve Gough and will be doing the same for Richard Collins shortly. I have attended a number of naturist events, but unlike BN, I don’t consider that actually ‘working for naturism’.

    Since you ask me, Kiran, what have you been doing to actively promote naturism this year?

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Duncan, Thanks for sharing your comments.
      Interesting you say about funds for NAG, I was wondering what do you need money for? How much do you need?

      I remember the film, this is the one you invited me on but I wasn’t able to make it. It doesn’t seem to have attracted any decent comments on that site, maybe I’m bit slow, but not sure what the point of this video is. Where is it being used to explain and promote naturism? I am very interested in this as I have had requests from many people to do similar videos/photo shoots.

      I’ve noticed that you haven’t heard from Steve for a long while, Iwas following your and BN effort in trying to help him but all seems to have gone silent! It is difficult to know how he can be helped if he won’t accept the help that has been offered, seems a very sad case, I believe BN did offer legal also. The concerning thing is anyone reading his case could be put off naturism in fear of what can happen.

      What help does Richard Collins need, I’ve read that his case is due to be heard in December but the newspaper I read also said that it is not certain that he will be taken to court. Not sure if the nudity charge would stand anyway.

      Ref the reply button, you have to use the reply at the bottom of the comment you wish to reply to, if that is not working for you, then there must be something you’re not doing quite right :-), as it works for everyone else.

      I see the organised naturists events as pleasure events for naturists, I don’t see them as promoting naturism other than keeping the numbers up. I would only go to an event if it interested me not just because it allows me to be nude, I guess your thoughts might be different.

      • Duncan Heenan Says:

        I said nothing about ‘funds for NAG’. I said “most of my efforts on behalf of naturism this year have gone in to helping to found NAG.” FOUND not fund (though I have contributed to its funds also). NAG is a campaigning organisation, and therefore it needs some funding to cover the costs of campaining. It is BN which seems reluctant to put its money where its mouth is where proper funding of campaining is concerned. BN’s campaign budget is miniscule compared to what it spends on the magazine, wages & salaries of non-campaign staff, EC expenses, and subsidising the various sporting and social activities for a tiny minority of its members to take part in.
        As for the film, your questions are better directed to Charlie Blackfield who directed and filmed it. My own part was mainly in providing the boat, logistics, and all the samanship involved. Charlie can be contacted via his website http://www.charlieblackfield.com/media.htm . I’m sure he’d be happy to answer any questions.
        You will recall that I also invited Paul to come on the trip & be in the film. I am not surprised that, as an attractive young woman prepared to appear naked, you get lots of film & phot offers. I think you would be unwise to confuse all of these with naturism though. If, like me, you were not young nor attractive nor a woman, I think you might get a truer perspective on how much of the world views naturism.
        Confidentiality stops me answering further about Steve Gough or Richard Collins I am afraid.
        I now see what you mean about the reply function on the log – my mistake, I apologise. The software doesn’t help though as it presents one with a reply template at the bottom of the blog when logging in, which was what I had been using.
        I agree with you in that I don’t go to naturist functions just to get naked – the function would have to appeal to me if I were clothed. And like you I don’t see them as promoting naturism. Though fun sometimes, they do reinforce the view both within naturism and without, that it should only be practised between consenting adults in private.
        Finally, you didn’t answer my question “Since you ask me, Kiran, what have you been doing to actively promote naturism this year?”

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Duncan, I asked about the video because you said it was being used to promote naturism and that is what I’ve been asked to do by a number of people, so wanted to tap into your experience because your comment was very authoritative and positive, but that’s fine.. I’ll contact Charlie another time and see if he is willing to share his knowledge.

        In terms of promoting naturism, I seem to have created a little monster and now find myself spending 20-30 hours a week, answering emails, tweeting, blogging. I have developed contacts with people all over the world, other than those in Europe most of them think that UK is still far better place for naturism than wherever they are.

        I am also doing more frequent photo posts at http://ladygod1vadaily.wordpress.com/ , trying not to become too associated with ‘just a naked girl’ kind of image and it seems to be working, although the naked photo posts do get more traffic than others, but that is to be expected.
        I did a film shoot with BBC for ‘Secret Britain’ but it didn’t make it to the only episode they did on nudity, but they may use it another time. I also did a shoot at home with a young photographer who was going to show case her work in New York and London. Did the London WNBR of course.

        My method is not to preach but to write about to share my own life style so that it gives others with less opportunities or confidence the courage to follow their heart.
        Apart from that, I feel as if I’m doing a doctorate on British Naturism because if I do stand for the Chairperson next year, I need to learn as much as I can about the business and members (happy and disgruntled 🙂

        I have been following NAG and hoping the 4 of you, including the one enjoying the sun in Sudan at the moment :-), can achieve some success to show your ability which would help to establish NAG so that you can gain more supporters/sponsorship. I’ve been sitting on the sidelines hoping that you can kiss and make up with BN because being a BN member, it is very difficult for me to act in support of NAG whilst you continue to bash BN at every opportunity. In my view that is not campaigning, it’s as Paul explained it to me the other day.. Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)  . I won’t try explaining the other example he used to express the similarities between your tactics and those he is more familiar with from his Army days! 🙂

      • Duncan Heenan Says:

        Thanks Kiran.
        I assure you NAG would be happy to work with BN, and has truied seveal times, but it takes two to tango. If you should become BN Chairman, or other officer I would welcome a more cooperative approach, or even a merger if it were acceptable to all parties. I have never been anti-BN. I am so much for a proper national representative body that my efforts to get reform and changes in that direction are what have sometimes been interpreted as trouble making.
        If you do stand for Chairman it is highly likely you’d be elected, unless another young, attractive woman stands also. that’s not the cynic in me speaking but the realist. In my experience in naturism being a young attractive woman gets votes regardless of policies or plans. If you have the right policies and plans too, I suggest your victory would be virtually guaranteed. I hope you do stand. I’ll watch this space- as will many others!

      • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

        Can I endorse what Duncan has said. We are always ready to work with BN officers and I don’t believe a merger between BN and NAG is out of the question, if – as Duncan said – all parties can agree. The Naturist Society in the US is a member’s organisation, but it is closely associated with the Naturist Action Committee and the Naturist Education Committee, all being formed by the same man – the late Lee Baxandall – but are separate organisations. While such a model might not be perfect for the UK, I think it would be a good place to start from.

      • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

        Richard Collins. Bournemouth Magistrates Court. Pre-trial hearing Nov 29, trial Dec 8-10. District Judge.

        I have nearly finished analysis of the Defence skeleton argument and the Crown response. 81 pages of it, and that doesn’t count the various documents that I am adding into the mix. Probably about 20 hours work by the time I finish and he isn’t even a member! Unfortunately it is a case that we can not afford to lose, and even if Richard wins, we may still lose.

        it is a messy situation which would have been much better avoided at this time. No, I am not going to explain further. It is complex and I must finish working through those case documents.

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        I would just like to correct one point. The following statement is no longer accurate: “subsidising the various sporting and social activities”. These are now being run to make a profit thanks to commission from the venues and sponsorship, so far from costing BN, they are contributing to BN.

        They also usually result in publicity for naturism as the media like to report that they are going on and we provide press releases and/or invite the press along to them. A two-page spread in the Daily Mail for the INF gala last year being a prize example of this (and this gala turned a profit). There has been world-wide coverage of our first Flat Holm trip this year as well as articles on such events as the Waterworld swims…

      • Duncan Heenan Says:

        I’m glad to hear what Brian Taylor says both about the sports & social events being used as publicity for naturism, and about them being self financing.
        The 2009 accounts (the most recent published) however show a net cost of Andrew Welch’s time of £48,232, and he spends a lot of his time organising social and sports events, and apparently none of that cost is taken in to the equation. In the same year BN spent only £201 on ‘Research & liasion’ i.e. Campaigning. The 2010 figures have yet to be published, but the budget for 2011 shows a similar story. Andrew Welch is budgeted to receive £50,000 (none of which is charged against events or sports), and sports are projected to have a cost of £2,000 and an income of only £1,000. Campaining is encouragingly budgeted for £3,000, but this is a drop in the ocean compared with the other things BN plans to spend members’ money on such as Audit (£5,000), Telephone & post (£10,000), Office costs (8.000), INF membership (for what return? at £12,000) – I could go on, but won’t.
        My message is one of priorities. BN is still not giving prioroty to campaigning – at least in the way it spends its money.
        The economies Brian points to (and which I welcome) come as a reult of necessity, driven by falling membership income, not by any real political will for BN to be a real campaigning force. And until it is, I think it will continue to lose members.

      • ladygod1va Says:

        May I please ask BN not to respond to these comments on this blog for now. I would like to reply later this evening before it becomes another disagreeable discussion.

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Duncan, I think you’re right about the fact that you mean well but your approach can be misunderstood. There is obviously no question that you can do the accounts but I would suggest that it would be beneficial to connects them to the business objectives/tasks.

        I think we as BN members have the right to ask questions, but in order to get the detailed and authoritative answers, they have to be addressed to the right people. I suspect you probably wrote the document but for what it’s worth..in the BN Constitution you’ll find the following statement “Paid staff will be under the control of the Executive Council, but directed in their day-to-day duties by the Chairman.”

        So if the EC and the Chairman who are trusted with Andrew’s time keeping are happy with his tasks which are after all in support of members’ activities/benefits. We can ask for clarification or make recommendations but if that is not good enough then the matter could be brought to AGM.

        I suspect BN’s campaigning methods don’t require great deal of money, change of methods is the EC’s responsibility, again we can recommend and suggest what we believe to be good but be prepared to accept the fact that our ideas may not be accepted.
        I am interested to understand what type of campaigning activities you’d recommend and their cost/benfits. In my experience cost doesn’t necessarily equates to successful promotional campaign, depends on the target audience and expected measure of success.

        Perhaps you and NAG who are more campaign orientated can take the lead and show how your ideas/methods can bring measured success to naturism. This is not a challenge but a serious thought!!

      • Duncan Heenan Says:

        My comments are based on 30 years experience of BN membership and elected membership of the EC as treasurer, also a lifetime’s career in business as Finance Director and Managing Director in a FTSA 100 group. Whilst I appreciate you bring a fresh perspective to what you are discovering, it might be helpful if that were informed by what has gone before, especially when lecturing those who have gone before.
        You tell me to address my comments to the right people. I was answering 2 members of the EC, Malcolm Boura and Brian Taylor. If you are suggesting that only the Charian should be addressed, I disagree. What’s more I have tried it many times (have you?).
        I did not write the BN consitution, and your suggestion that I did reinforces my view that your would do well to study the subject before giving forth on it.
        I agree that there are cases where cost is not the measure of effect, but my experience is that to any serious effort in such matters as campaigning there are always costs, and the lack of costs or a budget indicates an unpreparedness to make the effort required.
        On the matter of Andrew Welch, his role has been debated at several AGM’s, which you would know if you had ever been to one. Nothing changes however, which is why other forums attract comment.
        No doubt I shall once again be ‘misunderstood’ by various readers, possibly including yourself, but you too can be ‘misunderstood’.

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Duncan, Once again you’re quite right. Everyone, including you and I, can be misunderstood & in this case you have clearly misunderstood my intentions/comments.

        My comment about you probably having written the BN constitution was a POSITIVE acknowledgement of your seniority and your contribution to the organisation. If you knew me better, you’d know I have immense respect for my elders and those who obviously have passion and desire like yourself.
        As I said, whilst I acknowledge your experience in accounting and life, it doesn’t mean that if I express my views/thoughts I’m being disrespectful.

        I am over 30 and have plenty of experience; I have a very good relationship with people in my life and have never been accused of being nasty or disrespectful. Like most other people, I learn from my mistakes and move on.

        As I have previously commented, it will take time for me to catch up with 30 years of history but I am trying, I am reading what is available online, I have read many AGM minutes and I know that the question of Andrew’s employment has been discussed. But what I have not seen is any constructive / alternative plan that can be used to replace the role and benefit BN.

        In business terms your comment about funds is not my education or experience, you fund a business plan and not structure the business plan by allocating funds to an idea. So what is the business plan for campaigning you have in mind and how much funds does it require and what are the measures of success?

        I am confident that Brian and Malcolm can respond to your questions, which they and other EC members have done so many times in the past. However, their response will be to provide you with the facts and that may not be to your satisfaction as it will not address your desire for change to what you believe to be the right option.

        The way I am looking at this is that if you, having been a member for so long and having served on the EC for many years, have not managed to convince people that your views/desires are good for the organisation, then perhaps it is better to let someone take a fresh look at the problem.
        Like any organisation, BN has rules, we all have to work within those rules. If the rules need changing then that too can be addressed as there is an agreed way of doing so.

        I am NOT going to preach to you, but state a simple cold fact.. From what I have read and understand, if you are not getting satisfaction from the Chairman or the EC or the AGM, then you need to get enough BN members to support your resolution. If you cannot find enough members to do that, then set up your own organisation, which you have already done as NAG. Then the next step would be to make that organisation work to your satisfaction and let people be convinced through results, there is no challenge here.. it is what I would do if I was dissatisfied and wanted to follow my own beliefs.

      • Duncan Heenan Says:

        Your final paragraph brings this dicussion full circle (again).
        I have indeed been through the process you outline, as have others. However, most just vote with their feet, leave and do nothing further, which is why membership has been in decline for a decade. You are advocating that people join BN, without addressing the problems of why people are leaving. which sounds rather like selling tickets for the Titanic’s next cruise. I think your considerable energy and initiative would be best deployed repairing the damage from the inside, and maybe then advertising cruises.
        However, I’ve had my say here and will call it a day on this topic. I wish you luck if you do decide to get active in BN, I am sure you will be welcomed.

      • ladygod1va Says:

        You do make me smile!
        I am selling the tickets because, I am encouraged by the fact that a wise old sea dog like yourself is still on the ‘Titanic’, when you could quite easily lead the way and jump onto the safety boat (NAG) moored alongside… it makes me think that there must be some hope of plugging the hole still!:-). Thank you for your advice and confidence.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Duncan thank you for your support, I hope you’re not feeling too sorry for yourself, perhaps now you know how we females feel in the general work place… Lower wages and less opportunities and all that 🙂

      I’m confident that I have the academic qualifications (Masters in Business & IT), commercial experience (Director of 2 Companies), People skills (HR Manager) and I have the passion for the naturist life style. As for the policies, I work with some very senior people who I have learnt a great deal from, one thing being that the head of an organisation should not establish policies alone. Direction/Desire ..Yes but detail policies should come from the Board and Members, as it is they who will make it happen or not. Therefore BN needs many more members from all walks of life, from clubs and from the general public, holiday naturists and life style naturists. It is only then that a central organisation can hope to develop policies that benefit all stakeholders. If people don’t join and don’t help to formulate the policies, then they should not complain that their interests are not looked after. I see it bit like those who don’t vote should not complain about the Government policies!

      I have also followed the recent political change in the States and at home (UK)… lesson learnt is that if I do stand for the Chairperson … you will not find me promising, freedom to shop nude in Tesco’s and free sunshine all year around!! 🙂

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Reg Thank You too for the positive support. I am sure there is a role for everyone to benefit the naturist movement as a whole. We (British) lead the way in so many other things but like football Naturism is something that we always seem to come as runner ups when it comes to countries like Germany. Can that change in our lifetime? I’m not sure but it would be good to try and make it happen.

      I think there is so much experience and passion amongst leading male naturists such as yourself, however, I know you all are aware and have tried to resolve the issue in the past, but there are not enough females in the spotlight, not just as pretty faces but with voice and desire to match the men. Until this is addressed, I suspect we will remain in the shadows of the European naturism.

      Now… when you start talking about mergers and acquisitions I feel more comfortable, as it is something that I’m commercially happy with. I CAN NOT SPEAK FOR BN but in the real world as you all know, mergers are not good for everyone, it just depends what you bring to the party (as the Americans say!!). At present, from where I sit, I think both BN and NAG need to strengthen up, but I don’t see that there is any competition between the 2 parties.

      • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

        It goes without saying that you cannot speak for BN until you are elected to its Executive. I just hope that ‘England’ isn’t beaten by ‘Germany’ on penalties again!
        I don’t see any competition issues either. I venture to suggest, however, that some are not so convinced.
        Whatever, now is not really the right time to continue these discussions and almost certainly not the right place.

  13. ladygod1va Says:

    I have received a number of very positive emails in support of this post. I will publish some (not the sender details obviously), at some stage in the future. For now those reading this blog, I would just like to say thank and feel free to email me if you don’t wish to leave a comment.

  14. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Malcolm said it was criticism of BN which was costing its members, now you say it is internal politics. I can see that the decline has been going on for a decade now, so are you saying that ‘internal politics’ has been causing this for a decade? And prior to that, during the years of growth internal politics also raged, as did criticism (just as it does in most organisations). Also, in the two years since I, and others whom you have criticised, left the EC, the decline has continued, not reversed. So I can’t see why you think it a factor in the declining membership, other than the comments of a few people. A more rigorous way of finding out would be to carry out a proper, impartial, systematic exit poll. Or eve better have a proper survey of what people want from BN, like the one I had ready to roll 2 years ago, but the EC cancelled the minute I left the EC, despite my offer to see the exercise through. Or maybe that’s the sort of ‘internal politics’ you had in mind Brian?

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Duncan, My question was for you to say what you have done to promote British Naturism, doesn’t have to be about BN or NAG. I am sure with your passion for naturism, you must be involved in positives and must have some good news to share. It would be helpful if whilst trying to encourage the reader to consider naturism we are able to provide details on the positives as well as any serious negatives that are likely to hinder their enjoyment. BN can only help them, so I see my recommendations as being positive.

      On another point… can you please try using the ‘reply’ option when responding to comments as your ‘reply’ comments are disjointed from the comments they refer to.

    • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

      Sorry folks. I have tried to avoid naming names, but that is no longer possible.

      Let me give a concrete example of the sort of ill-considered comment that causes problems, albeit in this case a very mild one compared to other examples. However the continual drip, drip of such comments, some very much more damaging than the example here, does build up to a significant effect.

      Duncan wrote “Malcolm said it was criticism of BN which was costing its members, now you say it is internal politics.”.

      I said no such thing. Lady Godiva said no such thing (assuming that I correctly identified the comments Duncan was referring to). I talked about a significant contribution. Lady Godiva talked about the effect on at least some people.

      Unfounded criticism and internal politics are not mutually exclusive. Indeed in practice there has been considerable overlap between the two.

      The criticism in the quote is completely unfounded.

  15. Duncan Heenan Says:

    I haven’t concentrated on my own activites because it is your blog Kiran, and earlier in this thread you made it quite clear that you didn’t want it taken off the topic of why everyone should join BN, which was what you defined as the subject. If however you’d like to change the subject rather than continue to discuss BN I’d be happy to explain my own views and activities, which over the last year have been mostly channelled in to helping to found Naturist Action Group ( see http://naturistactiongroup.webs.com/ ) .

    Or was your question rhetorical, in which case what point were you trying to make please?

  16. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Malcolm blames (in part) ‘plausible seeming but incorrect statements’, about BN for the decline in membership. This itself is one such statement, with no evidence whatsoever to back it up, though stated as if it is true.
    As usual Malcolm complains about the time he spends answering criticisms of BN, but he chooses to do continue to do so, but without actually telling us what these ‘incorrect statements’ are, or disproving them, but merely denying them and criticising the critics.
    Could this constant stream of unsubstantiated denial not be a source of BN’s lack of credibility, itself leading to membership decline? It is all too easy to simply blame it all on other people rather than on those who are actually running the show.

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      When canvassing for new members at the WNBR this year I encountered a number of people who claimed to have been members in the past. When asked why they are no longer members every single one of them replied that they had been put off by the internal politics raging within BN.

      I have encountered this same opinion on other occasions as well.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Duncan, Why don’t you tell us what positive activities you personally have carried out within the past year to promote and benefit naturism in the UK?

    • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

      Duncan wrote: “As usual Malcolm complains about the time he spends answering criticisms of BN, but he chooses to do continue to do so, but without actually telling us what these ‘incorrect statements’ are, or disproving them, but merely denying them and criticising the critics.”

      Duncan, have you bothered to read my earlier contributions to this discussion? I am trying not to criticise individuals, that is unlikely to be helpful, and this is not the place to do it.

  17. Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

    Just a few points arising from various posts above.

    There are many reasons for the decline in BN membership but a significant one is the damage done by plausible seeming but incorrect statements. It is not just that people are put off from being members, it is the time that people like Brian and I have to waste trying to put the record straight. It is impossible to quantify how much damage has been done but we do know that it is significant. Please do not distract us from acting on valid criticisms with, let’s be tactful about this. allegations deficient in facts.

    At least one beach day this year was not at a designated beach. The only thing holding us back from doing more is the lack of volunteers to do it. That is one of many reasons why we are keen to appoint a volunteers officer.

    I am sorry that I have not been able to make a more positive contribution to this discussion. I am afraid that attempting to set the record straight has already used up more time than can be spared from the many of activities that need doing. Things such as the papers for a court case, lobbying Westminster, or the new campaigns officer post.

  18. Jason Ardron Says:

    Well Kiran another thought provoking acticle! I strongly feel as naturists there are two things we need to do to make naturism more acceptable in the UK. First we need to follow the example of people like yourself, and be more open about been naturists. The only way we are going to correct peoples misconceptions is by explaining to people what naturism is about and we can only do that by been more open. Plus naturism will become easier to accept once it has a human face, people are more likely to be more open to naturism or places where you can be naked when they know somebody who is a naturist. Secondly we as naturists need to come together, any minority who has ever won equal rights has done so by coming together. Individually we are whispers in the wind, together we are a roar people will take notice of. BN been an existing organisation is the obvious umbella to gather under. If everybody who enjoys been naked, weather that is in a club, on a beach, at home, in the garden, at a swim, on holiday or in the countyside joined BN, BN would be a much stronger organisation and be able to do alot more for naturism. By breaking off into different factions ultimately we are only going to hurt naturism, and make it less likely that we will achieve our goal of making naturism more accepted in the UK.

    • Sid Western Says:

      Jason,
      If, as you suggest, everybody who enjoys being naked joined BN I don’t thing we would be any better off unless BN changed. BN is changing but very slowly and there are individual vonlunteers within BN who are doing exellent work. I have been a nudist for over 50 years and since I was “outed” at the age of 17 have actively promoted my chosen lifestyle. I have appeared in magazines, on the radio and television and take part in events such as the WNBR and clothing optional events around the country. In all the years I have spoken to people about nudism/natuism I haven’t met anyone who has heard of CCBN/BN. Most have heard of the Naked Rambler, Steve Gough and the Naked Cyclist, Richard Collins and have seen a copy of H&E, the magazine that lead me into mainstream naturism. I even find it difficult to get acopy of H&E locally and now get it by subscription. Most of BN events are limited to members only and at the exellent Nudefest, photography is banned except for official photographs which we rarely get to see. BN beach days are all held on accepted naturist beachs of which there are only a handfull. Clothing optional events such as Abbey House Gardens are a good way of meeting with the general public, I would like to see more of them. Let’s have a clothing optional picnic in a public park or a beach day on an ordinary beach. A picnic in Hyde Park was tried a few years ago but was quashed by a massive police action. Is it time to try again? I don’t think I will see any great change in my lifetime but I live in hope.
      Sid

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Sid, we have met couple of times and discussed our backgrounds and commitment to naturism, and I re-iterate my admiration for your determination to stand by your beliefs even though others may not agree with the way we think.

        Events such as you refer to in the Hyde Park in 2003 and another attempt noted in 2005 were it would seem not organised by BN or in the same way BN organises events now. Now there is less risk of failure/conflict due to the work carried out in preparation and process used by BN.

        Same as our own families, the majority of the general public is very opinionated and against open nudity. You and a few others, like Steve and Collin over the past 50 odd years have not managed to convince the public to understand naturism in the way we understand it. What has changed over the past few years is that the media’s use of nudity has increased and the single most significant improvement has been the change in law, supported by BN, that prevents Naturists being convicted under the sexual acts if they are involved in naturism only.

        Based on this we must look to the future rather than the past.
        BN is a members’ organisation, already they do more for public awareness than any other organisation. If they get more non club members (as I am trying to promote) , they will be able to do more for them. As far as I am aware, BN is not provided with any budget from any source to organise or support public events other than whatever may be allocated from their membership income.

        You also need to remember that BN organise family events, where children are expected, to invite non members to these events, when you don’t know who these people are, would be asking for trouble. Any bad incident involving children would prevent any future events being organised. BN owe it to their membership to ensure that they are protected. Commercial places, such as Alton Towers also insist on members only rule for the events organised with them.

        As explained in my post above, even the general public who may desire to just sunbathe nude in their garden, beach or parks stand to benefit from being members of an organisation that is nationally recognised as the authority on Naturism in the UK. This not only validates their commitment to naturism but also provides them with the support that they may need in terms of information and legal advice/support when required.
        Events such as pre-organised semi/demo type picnics or walks where the point of the event is just to make a point that being nude is ok, are NOT going to change the public opinion. What will change the public opinion is the act of young people being relaxed and doing their thing as shown in the photo on my other blog at http://ladygod1vadaily.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/personal-freedom/ This has to be a natural change, that comes with change in public views, which in the main are controlled by media, religion and change in culture. An act of a single girl sunbathing topless in Hyde Park will do more to change people’s views/acceptance of public nudity, than seeing 10 naked men, no matter how sincere or dedicated naturists they may be. I am trying to bring about this change by promoting the fact that nudity is not illegal and girls are unlikely to be told to cover up.

        It is not possible to have a rapid change of public attitude through a few well organised events. It will take time, but it does require the campaigning people and naturists organisations to work together.

        The shape of BN is changing and will need to change further to cater for the future membership which must include many more young male and females, who enjoy naturist activities but are not aware of the national organisation that can help to make it easier for them to enjoy the same in the UK as they do when abroad.

      • Sid Western Says:

        Kiran, The events in Hyde Park were inspired by Richard Collins, the first one was just a get together for a picnic and attracted quite a few people. Unfortunately the police turned up mob handed in their Hi viz gear and threatened anyone who stripped off with arrest. As I approached the site for the picnic I thought there had been a major accident. The second incident, which was just after the London bombings, was the prelude to an event organised by Millets. They wanted nudists to shop in their store on Kensington High St. after normal opening time to promote a new range of outdoor clothing. Richard suggested that we meet up in Hyde Park for a picnic before the event, five males turned up. It was this event that attracted the attention of six police officers who threatened us with arrest. In the evening there were around 25 naked people on Kensington High St being photographed looking into Millets shop window. Although it attracted quite a crowd the police didn’t show up. In your reply you condemn pre-organised semi/demo events and suggest only young people being relaxed and doing their thing, does this mean we oldies can’t relax and do our own thing? You say over the years we have not convinced the public to understand naturism, nor has BN. As you say there has been a change in the law supported by BN and hundreds of individuals, the law is not the problem it is the interpretation of the law by individual officers that is our main worry. I have been dismayed by the opinions expressed by police officers I have talked to. With regards to BN organising family events to which inviting non-members would be asking for trouble, I am not aware that BN vet their members so they wouldn’t know them anyhow. I have brought up a family in a naturist environment so I do appreciate their concern. I do believe we need a strong national body to represent us and I am saddened, but not suprised, by the continuing decline in membership, a problem to which I do not have an answer. I have seen it suggested that you stand for chairman and think this would be a good start.
        regards Sid

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Sid, After Xfactor (sad I know) and Celebrity get me out of here (not my choice!!), this subject seems far too serious but I think I should thank you for your comments and assure you that I wasn’t suggesting that the oldies should cover up :-).

        You know that I get on much more with older people than those of my age, the point I made about the young people is related to the fact that the image of naturism in this country is very strongly represented by middle to later age and more male than female. The trends are set mostly by young people (I’m sure you set few trends in your days!), and they are the majority of the population that we as naturists have to engage with and not wait till they get old themselves when a few of them will no doubt take to naturism.

        A naked couple or naked female tends to look less aggressive than a naked sole male, I don’t make these rules, this is what the public image is. I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that males in general are prosecuted for aggressive sexual offensives, so they remain suspects. As you also know there is a great lack of females in British naturism who are willing to exercise their right to be nude in public in the UK for many reasons, which I have already mentioned in my post above. So we need to approach the younger age bracket to try and make the environment suitable/safe enough for them to feel comfortable enough to do in the UK what a large percentage of them already do on holidays.

        I have been naked in public on many occasions, not to make a point but for a reason, be it just sunbathing, swimming, picnic or just photography, without any major incidents.
        Regarding the police, I think a major change and understanding by the London MET of naturism/nudity did take place during oneandother last year. BN I know is working with the Police at various levels to make this clearer.
        As far as I understand, BN’s advice is to enjoy the countryside or your garden, keep the group small and ensure it is of mixed sex whenever possible and keep it a low key affair. If the police come, cover up when asked to do so but not agree to any caution or crime having been committed. If any legal support is required, BN members should seek advice from any normal legal source but also involve BN who are more likely to be able to ensure that the legal help and the police understand the law. More on this is available on the links I have included in my post above.

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        Hi. If I might just ‘chip in’ to correct something here please? Alton Towers is the only event organised by BN for which you have to be a member and that was the choice of Alton Towers, not BN. Members usually get cheaper entry to events, but non-members are by no means excluded.

        As Sid says, we can no more vet every applicant for membership than we could vet participants at every event. This is why we have a comprehensive safeguarding policy, devised in conjunction with the NSPCC, and plan our safeguarding for events so that no-one is ever anonymous and we catch any dubious behaviour before it becomes a serious problem. Every member and every visitor at an event has to be allowed in on the basis of being innocent until proven guilty or in this case until suspected guilty quite frankly!

        Photography is not banned at Nudefest, it is simply limited to your immediate family and friends in order to avoid unwanted indiscriminate photography. We are working on greater access to our official photographer’s pictures for members of BN and starting with the pictures taken this weekend at Alton Towers, many will be made available on the newly enabled gallery on BN’s forum.

  19. PERSONAL FREEDOM | LadyGod1va's Photos & News Blog Says:

    […] If you wish to share your views and read over 100 other comments please see my post on British Naturism at https://ladygod1va.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/british-naturism/ […]

  20. Martin Says:

    It’s great to hear above that you have a secret desire to test the New York law about females being allowed topless in public.

    I can appreciate your secret desire as I too wanted to be able walk about naked in public.

    Maybe you should also go to Barcelona, where public nudity is not illegal.
    Before visiting Barcelona, I had heard and seen pictures of people wandering the streets of Barcelona totally naked and was quite intrigued and wanted to try it myself.

    So one morning I walked out of my hotel wearing only a pair of shorts, and nervously removed them about 5 minutes later before strolling down a busy street. I walked about naked for about an hour without any hassle. Surprisingly, nobody seemed bothered that I was naked at all. In fact even a police car drove past without stopping, so they werent bothered either.

    It would be good if Britain could adopt such a healthy atitude to simple nudity as the Spaniards.

    • Keith Says:

      That’s excellent! I didn’t know about Barcelona. And this is exactly where I believe we should be aiming to take the UK. It’ll be an uphill struggle though, I know.

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      Thanks for this anecdote. I will store it away for future use…

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Martin, Thanks. it’s good to know that you have actually done it in Barelona. I have been there couple of times, very hot and had too much attention from locals when wearing hot pants and bra top on a very hot day. Perhaps it would have been less of an impact for them if I had been in the nude!! :-). Will try it when shopping there next time.

  21. LadyGod1va & Art | LadyGod1va's Photos & News Blog Says:

    […] the pics and if you find you like what you see perhaps you’d like to read the latest post at https://ladygod1va.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/british-naturism/ if you want to be part of what I am and do, then it would be good to get a comment or two back from […]

  22. Neil Says:

    I am 27 I have considered joining bn since I was 18, however I have seen no reason to. I love being naked and try to be whenever possible. I have been to two naturist beaches but found them busy and crowded. All I want is for someone to convince the public nudity is legal. If you ask members of the clothed public if they are offended by nudity 90% say no however they may report a naked person walking the countryside because kids might see them! This is what needs changing why does it matter if children see a naked body?
    I would rather any naturist group focused on getting news, blog, tv, radio stories out about casual nudity ie walking a quiet countrypath or naked canoeing on a quiet river. Maybe skinny dipping on a normal beach or just sunbathing in our gardens, not visiting nudist clubs or organised beach days which appear to suggest nudity should only be practiced in allocated places and is not right anywhere else.
    Bn and others should be campaigning everywhere using every media from forum to podcast, magazine to tv ad to put the message out that nudity is legal, natural and normal it harms no one helps everyone.
    Oh and a slight aside help reject the naked body scanners at airports by getting naked in the queue. 🙂 (see no agenda for more)
    Thanks

    • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

      Hello Neil,
      You wrote: “All I want is for someone to convince the public nudity is legal.” Now there is the rub. This kind of campaigning costs money, so if more people who thought your way joined either BN or donated to the Naturist Action Group (I will not state which one, that should be perfectly obvious, but the final choice is yours) then in time your wish will be granted. It will come even quicker if people started to become more active in persuading non-naturists (such as Lady G) that naturism isn’t as mad as it may seem – especially if what they say about our climate changing is right. [I think it is true, our climate is changing – has been changed – by human activity, but that is an entirely different conversation.]
      TTFN

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Hi Neil, Thanks for taking the time to comment. Your views are of course valid and I am sure a large number of naturists would agree with you. However the reality is that naturists are a minority and unless the minority speak up (Like the Gays), their voices will not be heard. This has been the case in the past, although that is not to say that there have not been some significant contributions from individuals and organisations to help us to get where we are today.

      As far as the acceptance of nudity by the general public is concerned, we are obviously much better now than we were about 20/30 years ago. Most of this has come about as a result of the fashion and film industry pushing the boundaries and to some extent in the UK it is helped by the fact that we tend to travel a lot more than we did 30/40 years ago.

      The fact is that there are many more people who enjoy a nude swim in the Sea than what the public thinks. These people however don’t consider themselves as naturists and only do nude things as enjoying the moment. They are unlikely to plan to go out nude, but if the opportunity presents itself, they would probably do it. This I believe is the general public and the leading naturists need to harness this desire to enjoy a nude moment and turn it into something that can be enjoyed more often. This can be achieve by following the direction indicated in your comment, in that we should be able to go nude sunbathing etc, in the local parks, beaches and other outdoor public place.

      The issue is that if you designate a place, you create a homing beacon for the perverts, alternatively if you try to get a general agreement from the authorities for use of the general public places, then the casual naturists need a lot more confidence to go nude where others are not!! So it’s bit of a catch 22. My view is that, we have to clean up the naturist image, so it is more respected and increase the number of people identified as living a naturist way of life, so that any given organisation can say..’ look we have 1 million (wishful thinking) known naturists in this country who deserve better facilities and understanding.’ This will never happen if the home/holiday naturists don’t stand up and be identified as naturists.

      Considering your situation, I would strongly recommend that you join BN, I say this because if you are used to walking the countryside in the nude, it will take no more than one incident to get you on the sex register. If you try to argue your case for freedom and that there is nothing wrong with nudity, the prosecution could argue that you knew you would offend people and that is why you were wherever you may be at the time. If you do not have a history of being a known and respected as a naturist, there is nothing to separate you from a pervert other than your word.

      Being a member of an organisation provides you the support of that organisation and in cases like I mention above, you would benefit from not only good advice but also legal help to try and ensure you were not prosecuted for a crime that you had not intended.

      As far as beach days etc are concerned, there are many good reasons to have those and have people participating but this reply may turn into a book!!

      Thank you again and I would urge you to consider joining BN, for peace of mind that you have an organisation behind you with members who have the necessary experience to help you to live your life as a naturist within the current law.

  23. GreyBruceNaturists Says:

    My wife and i being avid naturists have been promoting naturism at the street level here in Ontario Canada. We ran ads on Kijiji, Craigslist and provided information to common folk. We ran into the usual perverts, got a few penis pictures, got asked about erections, swapping and swinging, and if bi-sexuality interested us.?
    The local , long established naturist club listed by the FCN (Federation of Canadian Naturists) also operates a mirror organization called Nudists Who Swing” , not sure how he manages to keep both clubs apart.
    He certainly seemed to be on the prowl when we met him.

    I ‘m certainly not against diversity , there should be lots of choices out there for everyone , whether it be pure naturists, swingers, skinny-dippers, the BDSM crowd, & naturist resorts.
    In My Humble Opinion.

    As our Twitter name shows, so far its: jus2ofusont

    Twitter: jus2ofusont

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Thanks for your comments, it is much appreciated.
      Ref the diversity, I too have no issue, my point is only that there should be a separation between naturists and any other kind of sexual act/group.

      The other point I made was that there are too many small organisations that people belong to but there is nothing that links the people or the organisations to a larger organisation that can act on the behalf of the whole naturist movement. The larger the group, the stronger it can campaign for its rights.

      • GreyBruceNaturists Says:

        I believe what’s require is an umbrella organization, i had a discussion with a fellow in the USA who wrote a blog on exactly what you are describing.

        Would the separation not exist within the group itself as an example, a bsdm or swinger club /group would co-exist under and umbrella organization with a naturist group or a skinny-dipper club.?

        Under such a model i think you would really see lots of pushback, the christian nudists would be totally against the bdsm group as “it’s just about sex”, just like the swingers are “all about sex”.

        And don’t forget the Raelians, they were invited to the nudist Wreck Beach in Britsh Columbia and the first thing they did was form a “spaceship” out of sand on the beach, the nerve.!

        And last but not least,you don’t have sex in a naturist resort cause naturists are afraid of sex. I think it turns you into a Swinger. !

        A little sarcasm, can you tell i’ve discussed it?
        greybrucenaturists
        greybrucenaturists@bmts.com
        Ontario, Canada

  24. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Thanks again Brian,
    I was not suggesting you give names, addresses or identifiable details of BN ‘working with’ the police, or in reporting the outcomes. However, it is very easy to anonymize them so that the public can see exactly what you mea. I always find examples more convincing and illustrative than generalisations when trying to make a point.

    • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

      Sorry for the late reply. Lady Godiva’s email only reached me this evening!

      A few months ago a couple were threatened with prosecution by the police for garden Naturism. Their neighbour had complained to the police because he didn’t like at and he claimed that their children were being harmed.

      I provided advice and support to the couple and wrote to the police. That letter was obviously effective because they backed down and shortly aftewards they provided a letter to the couple stating that there had been no offence and that there were no child protection issues. The child protection part was very important given the sensitive occupation of one of the couple.

      Harassment continued from next door in various ways and the police submitted a file to the CPS to see if the neighbour could be prosecuted for harassment. I was not optimistic that there was sufficient evidence and unfortunately the CPS were also of that opinion. However the evidence continues to mount and there have been other developments so it may yet happen.

      The situation is more complex than the above indicates but at this stage I can not say any more. I have been looking for a case which would enable us to establish some legal principles in a number of areas and I am hopeful that this case is going to provide at least some of them.

      There was a lot more activity needed than the above may indicate. I have 109 emails on file, several letters and there has been a couple of dozen phone calls, many lengthy. I don’t see my role in something like this as just legal/campaigns, it is also important to provide moral support.

      Another example was the case in Belfast which I attended as observer, advisor and potential witness. It was quite clear that the defendants BN membership cards (he had several years) were considered significant. I have found the same in connection with a number of other cases and BN is occasionally asked by the police to confirm that somebody is a member. It definitely carries weight.

  25. ladygod1va Says:

    Rather than maintaining the focus on interrogating BN to minute detail here, I would like to see you all contribute details of your own experience as naturists (hopefully good) and anything that you have actually done to help the naturists. I am hoping to encourage future naturists through this.

    With all due respect to all those participating here, this is my blog and I am not willing to allow it to be used in a way it was not intended. Whether you think it right or wrong is of no concerns to me, because to name/shame individuals, or specify anything in detail that could put me in physical danger is not acceptable to me. I have taken pride in publishing all about me on the web so that people can use me as a role model and perhaps communicate their interest in naturism to their friends and family. This means that details of who I am and where I live/work are easily identifiable.

    Although I have never moderated the comments on my blog, I will do so in this case.

  26. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Thanks Brian,
    You use the term ‘working with’ the police several times, but it is not clear to me what this actually means in practice. Merely pre-notifying an event could class as that, but is no more than any event organiser would do.
    Also you don’t cite any actual outcomes as a result of this ‘working with’ the police. I was hoping for some specific examples with detail so we could see what is actually happening, and its effectiveness, rather than the ususal generalities.
    (I know about Corton, but I think most of the ‘working with’ there was with the Local Authority rather than the police.)

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      As Sid pointed out; this is not the place to go into every detail. As for outcomes, do you want me to start listing the arrests made? This certainly isn’t the place to do that!

      I use the term ‘working with’ because it has gone beyond ‘talking to’. However, I am definitely not prepared to give full details, again it is not appropriate. Like the press, I have to consider the difference between what is in the public interest and what the public may be interested in.

      • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

        Brian,
        I fully support your decision to be discrete, especially if it involves a potential court action, but once that is completed with a decision published, there is no reason why BN could not tell the whole of the naturist community more. Do you not think that is possible; think of all the positives that could give naturists and non-naturists about naturism as a life style, instead of to apologise all the time for doing something that is not illegal.

      • Sid Western Says:

        I posted this comment earlier, 11.17, but it seems to have got lost so I am posting it again.

        As this is a BN initiative I feel it is up to them to publish details of the events at Berrow, to this end I have passed details to Judith.
        I can assure you, however, there have not been any arrests or cautions, in fact since I was on my own most of the time this would not have been possible anyway. In the hours I have spent wandering around the dunes I haven’t witnessed anything I would consider unlawfull.
        Sid

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        The arrests I was thinking of were not at Berrow beach.

  27. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Thanks, but what’s the point?
    You were calling for non-BN members to join up, until which they will have bo access to the BN forum. Your appeal is academic to BN members, as they are already members. The various issues raised in this thread have already been debated ad nauseam on the BN forum.
    Maybe for future blogs it would be better not to invite/allow responses, if you don’t want others’ views.

  28. ladygod1va Says:

    Although I’m impressed with the level of discussion generated through one simple post on promotion of naturism, I don’t think this format is very good for a deep and meaningful dialogue. It is probably best if the BN members start a new Topic on the BN Forum.

    Thank you for participating and I will look forward to your support in the future.

  29. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Brian,
    I am pleased to see you say that BN is working with the police to tackle the problem of perverts using naturist facilities & beaches. Would it be possible to cite some actual examples with details of what is actually happening and what the outcomes are? This would be a great help to understanding, and would boost BN’s credibility in the eyes of existing and potential members.

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      We have had a very good relationship with the police on Studland beach for many years now as well you must know Duncan from your time on BN’s EC. Before every beach day the local police are contacted and invited to meet with us on the beach. This year the Wells branch of Norfolk police joined us on Holkham beach and we had a very useful discussion with them which has lead to a continuing relationship since. Our eastern rep. has worked closely with Suffolk police over the issue of Corton beach where joint statements have been made regarding the legality of naturism and the protection of naturists by the law. Our south-west rep. has met with Somerset police over issues at Berrow beach and continues to work with them as does one of our members in that area – care to comment Sid? Some of these collaborations include possible action against websites that encourage illegal activity at these beaches.

      This says nothing of the work of our Research & Liaison Officer who is also in contact with many police forces around the country, educating them as well as working on specific issues with them.

      • Sid Western Says:

        On the 14th. September I went with Judith to meet the Burnham on Sea police. As a local who uses the beach at Berrow I agreed to be part of the team. I have done four patrols of the beach now, three of them on my own, the details of which I have passed to Judith. I am not sure if this is the correct place to give details of the walks and my personal views of the initiative which was instigated by BN.

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        Thanks Sid. I agree with your desire to be discreet.

  30. Mark and Adi Says:

    Great article. Whilst we are living on the other side of the world so the discussion on the specifics of British Naturism are a bit remote for us, we completely agree with the philosophy that there is strength in supporting a national naturist organisation instead of smaller special interest groups within naturism. In the US, Australia and NZ we have put this into practice. The only other country where we have lived was Germany and we actually didn’t feel the need to join there as naturism was so open in society. Our local swimming pools had a clothed and a nude side. With great facilities in each. Noone cared whether you went to the clothed pool or the nude pool because everyone got changed in a unisex open change area. But I digress.

    A good example of the benefits of supporting one large national organisation vs having a fractured set of smaller groups is nothing to do with naturism. My wife and I are both lucky to be pilots and in the US the national aircraft owners and pilots association is incredibly well supported with I think 400,000 members. Most pilots including students support it (and are actively encouraged to). And they are great advocates for private aviation with success in lobbying governments and delivering benefits to their members. In Australia by contrast there is a weak national organisation with many smaller factional groups in competition in aviation advocacy. And the result is no strength in lobbying for change, few member benefits and little credibility.

    So the net is we applaud what you and your partner are doing to build the support for BN and thanks for being such a strong advocate for naturism.

  31. Duncan Heenan Says:

    When a ‘family’, have a discussion it’s not always possile to stop the neighbours overheqring. So it is with discussion within naturism. As with discussions within a famil, I don’t think the right approach is to say ‘not in front of the children’. The way ahead is to have these debates, but to do so in a civil, honest and factual way. That way children grow up with good manners and able to exercise their own judgment. Similarly, I think we can trust those thinking of trying naturism to be adults and make their own minds up on the various issues. If all they want to do is to be naturists and take their clothes off, that’s fine. If they want to get involved in politics and organisations that’s fine too. But to filter out ‘the whole truth’ and only present them with a rose tinted view of the world to fool them in to joining BN is not fine by me. If there ate problems, the way to deal with them is to deal with them, not to hide them from view and hope no one notices.

  32. Richard Burnham Says:

    Sadly, this attitude that we must always be ‘positive’ and pretend that things are all right and never learn from mistakes is exactly the reason that BN is an unprofessional, failing organisation and exactly why I do not intend to waste my money on it.

    I’ll say no more.

  33. Keith Says:

    Gentlemen (and apart from Lady G I think this comment thread is all male) … I have read these comments with growing amazement. For a collection of people who (mostly) want one single objective (a healthy and respected naturism community in the UK) you’re going the best way about ensuring this does NOT happen. Please stop arguing and throwing your testosterone around! If you can’t agree and work together then your best course of action is to (quietly) agree to disagree and keep silent. As Lady G has said: if you have nothing good (or useful) to say, then say nothing. The comments and attitudes in this thread have probably done as much damage to UK naturism as any number of rabid articles in the tabloid press.

    And no, that doesn’t mean I expect everyone to agree – and neither should they; healthy debate is just that: healthy. But spite, name-calling and dogmatically entrenched positions (on any side) help no-one, least of all the perpetrators.

    There, I’ve said my piece and got that off my chest. I hope no-one is upset. Please can we now go back to working to grow UK naturism, preferably as a single team?

    • sandy_beach_cat Says:

      I would agree with that. this is begininng to become just a re-hash of old arguments from a while back. Any chance of trying to start over and agree some common ground?
      For what it’s worth, I can see that BN needs to actively promote naturism. At least in England & Wales, it would seem to have a golden opportunity, as nudity is now more accepted as not being actually illegal.
      However BN isn’t intended to just be a pressure group, & has to support it’s existing members by providing the services that they signed up for. The problem is getting the balance right with limited funds & time.

  34. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Yes I do agree with Reg that “…we need BN, or an organisation like it”. But I also agree with the context in which he said it, which contains many comments on how it needs to be improved. Acknowledging a need for a National Representative Body is something I have been doing publicly for decdes, and trying to improve the one we have is also something I, and others, have been trying to do. Criticism can be constructive if it if based on fact and is received and acted on in the right way. If it is met with criticism of the critic it leads nowhere, which seemsto be what has been happening for too long.

    I agree, it would be nice if we could all forgive and forget. Will you similarly encourage BN to do that too? They could make a start by acknowledging that there is diversity within naturism and one size may not fit all. Cooperation, not confrontation is the only answer to diversity. We can speak with one voice, but it can come from different directions.

    Discussion is good, and I applaud your initiative in doing your own thing with your website. However, you say we should all join BN (I have been a member for over 30 years), and put all our efforts through that. That’s exactly what I did, by going on to the EC, but it didn’t work out. You object to my explaining the reasons and implications of doing that. You set out to be an independent voice encouraging others not to be independent voices. You tell people to make their efforts through BN, but you say that you won’t do so by standing for offcie yourself. I am left wondering what your actual aim is, apart from appealing for everyone to love one another and stop disagreeing?

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Duncan
      I think we are making progress here. I take all you say on board. So let me bring you back to my main concern;

      Do you agree with me that as a ‘family’ of naturists (all families have disagreements), that we should avoid shooting ourselves in the foot by discouraging new members, through publically debating our age old disagreements that are better done with the existing members?

      I would appreciate your answer limited to this specific question.

  35. Mark Mackworth-Praed Says:

    Kiran, congratulations on your article and for drawing out a debate that has been far more interesting and informative to read than much of what is posted on many other naturist sites. Sadly, some (possibly rather too much) of it rather demonstrates the truth of Karl Maddocks’ incisive comment when he renounced his own creation of Skinbook, namely that the naturist community is “ostracized from without and fragmented from within.”
    Not having been party to the past, I have no wish to dwell on it, and no place to comment on the rights and wrongs of what may or might have been, or not have been, said or done then. Looking forward, however, it is clear that a strong national campaigning organization is essential, for not just the defensive protection of naturists and their rights, but (as others have said) for the expansion of their acceptance in the wider public mind.
    For that reason we (Deb & I) have recently joined BN – she more reluctantly, as we have had many discussions both at home and abroad with other naturists as to its relevance or lack thereof to the interests of individual naturists, and (again sadly) the general opinion from the European standpoint is that it is fighting a failing rearguard action against the entrenched British public perspective that naturism “has a seedy association with sexual activities and perverts of one kind or another” (sorry Brian, but it’s true, it still does).
    Unfortunately, it is this which creates a negative spiral – so many of the naturists that we know personally don’t reveal, and daren’t reveal, to those around them that that is what they are, because of these negative associations, and consequent fears for their reputations, jobs etc., particularly if they are in any sort of position where they are in contact or dealing with the wider public, or (Heaven forfend) with children.
    I constantly compare (and bemoan very boringly) the lack of progress made by naturism in terms of its general acceptance in the UK with, for example, the progress made over the past thirty years or so by gay, bisexual and transsexual people in asserting and achieving their rights and equalities in the eyes of society and the law.
    Thirty years ago, I remember sunbathing on a nude beach on Spetse in Greece, and thinking “how cool is this, before long I’ll be able to go to pretty much any beach in the UK and Europe like this and no-one will bat an eyelid” – I think the fact that I was so wrong back then speaks volumes. To what extent BN has or has not been responsible for that I think is unproductive to argue over, the question is what happens now. I believe BN should change – the section of its website, for example, dedicated to current issues and campaigning topics is frankly appalling and sooooo slow to be updated. But at the end of the day I think that history teaches us that unity of purpose is what prevails, and (forgive the crudity) it is better to be inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. Congratulatons again Kiran & keep up the good work. Best wishes Mark x

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      No need to apologise Mark, we know that despite our best efforts naturism in the UK does still have a seedy reputation among some people. This is why I spend about 35 hours a week (on top of my full time job in engineering) commenting on news articles – and blogs! This is also why we issue press releases, give interviews, etc.; to try and chip away at that reputation.

      Returning to Lady God1va’s original blog entry; the swingers who use the title naturist are a big part of the problem, which is why we are working with the police to try and stamp out their illegal activity at beaches and see what can be done about the incitements to commit those crimes published on their websites.

      There has been encouraging signs in recent articles and interviews that the press are beginning to learn the distinction between ‘genuine naturists’ and swingers. Issues at a couple of UK beaches and at Cap d’Agde have shown this. We continue to plug away at this…

  36. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Which particular statement by Reg (there are many in this discussion) do you refer to? I am not going to take a few words out of context and ignore the many comments Reg has made about BN (many critical and referring to previous experience), if that is what you mean. So I can answer you, can you quote exactly what you are asking me to agree to?

    Also can you say why it is important that I agree with Reg? Unlike BN, NEG is not a group which requires tribal obedience on all matters and utterances. We are free thinkers.

    I am not playing games here. I really can’t give you an honest answer unless I have a properly formulated quaetion.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Duncan, You may be ‘free thinkers’ but if you want to help to progress naturism then you will need to approach the authorities as an organisation/Naturism authority. Steve Geogh is a ‘Free Thinker’ and it is not helping him or naturism.

      Regarding your Chairman he said below..

      “Sorry. I’m knocking BN and I promised myself that I’d never to do that because, as strange as it may seem, I agree with you; we need BN or an organisation like it.”

      So you can have your arguments with BN but it would be logical not to discourage those that are new to naturism and need a helping hand by washing your laundry in public.

      I would like to help as many people as possible to enjoy the freedom and joy of naturism that I enjoy, at the same time I know my limitations and I need the support of people like you and BN. I am not attached to anyone in BN but I do believe it is an organisation that is trying to make an effort. We all should encourage it, not slap it down each time something good is said about it.

      If you don’t see my point and still don’t understand the question whether you agree with your Chairman, please discuss it with him.

      I would also suggest you could perhaps publish a strategy on how you wish to encourage people to ‘try’ naturism.

      If you and others disagree with my promotion of naturism please let me know and I will close this blog because at the moment anyone reading this is likely to be discouraged by it all rather than thinking they have a credible organisation to back them should they need it.

      I don’t want to damage naturism if I can’t help it!

  37. Duncan Heenan Says:

    Thanks Kiran. You don’t actually say whether you are offended, or by what, but please be assured i have not meant any offence.
    You say that if you have nothing to say, say nothing. But I do have something to say, on a subject you raised. You may not agree with it, ot like it, but it is something.
    You say you didn’t write about BN, but you did. That’s exactly what the blog is about, and it builds up to a advertisement and an appeal for people to join BN. If you don’t want people to put things on there which run contrary to your own opinions please say so or moderate the responses. It’s your website and you can say who posts there, but it’s not right for you to tell people what to say, as that is not open , honest debate.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Duncan, You have not responded to my comments.

      Let me keep it simple..
      Do you support your Chairman’s statement about needing BN?

  38. Keith Says:

    Thanks from me also LadyGod1va! I largely (though not entirely) agree with what you’re saying and have written about this on my Zen Mischief blog rather than comment here at length.

  39. John Tanner Says:

    Offensive…..I am feeling a strong dislike for that self righteous know-it-all attitude demonstrated in his reply by Duncan Heenan who may well be aged, but by his age should have gained a little respect for others, especially others trying to forward the cause of naturist acceptance in the UK.

    Duncan, please consider these uniquely feminine efforts of the beautiful LadyGod1va, who initiated these columns, freely putting all of herself into the promotion of uniting open minded nude individuals to become fully accepted into our future UK society.

    So in the simplest of terms, LadyGod1va, by using a feminine approach – and nudism without more committed female involvement would be horribly unacceptable – has, by these columns, cultivated a fertile ground on which to grow the potentially expanding nude living cause, by giving opportunity for fresh input from previously uninvolved but nude appreciative individuals.
    So along come enthusiastic independent’s Sandy and John, and you Duncan heavily tread on this new enthusiasm to dump more of your bitter excretion at the doorstep of BN – a totally self-serving action and far more likely to dissuade other independents to join in the cause than to encourage them.
    A sincere apology to LadyGod1va is called for Duncan, and should you wish to demonstrate your superior abilities, why not do something that’s so desperately needed by the many uninitiated UK naturists… for instance concentrate your abilities into putting a clear and unequivocal fully downloadable and printable document on the web, a UK version (to be accredited by NAG, BN, etc ) of the excellent Spanish FEN pdf (http://www.naturismo.org/docs/legal_fen_english.pdf ) so as to positively build the present shaky confidence of we many wary and yet-to-be fully involved individuals, by giving us a tangible proof and an authentic back-up to our future nude excursions within the realities of UK life.

    John Tanner

    • Duncan Heenan Says:

      If Kiran herself is offended I’ll apologise, but I’d like to know what I have said which is ‘offensive’, as none was intended.
      I shall not apologise to John Tanner though as I think Kiran can look after herself, and I don’t share his fawning attitude towards females merely on grounds of their sex. I believe in sex equality and staright talking, so I say what I believe regardless of a person’s sex. To do otherwise is patronising, and frankly if I were Kinran I’d find John Tanner’s ‘defence’ of me offensive, as it would imply I was unable to defend myself on my own website (which I don’t think is the case).
      Kiran has a nice way of going about things, but I can see she is a strong and independent character whom I respect. For John Tanner to take the debate away from the issues and in to a personal attack on me helps no one and no cause, and frankly echoes the kind of attitude which has dogged progress within BN for decades. All I have done is to disagree with some of the things said, and cite some facts and history in support of my view.
      Can we now revert to the issues please?

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Duncan
        I was brought up under the teaching that if I had nothing good to say, it was best to say nothing.
        My blog is not about the rights or the wrongs of BN in the years gone by or about what anyone thinks about BN, it is about my experience and my belief about what is good about naturism.
        By washing your laundry in public, you and others do nothing to promote naturism in the UK. Far be it for me to say how you should behave, all I can say is that if I was in your position, I would take my grievances to the CURRENT BN membership and to the AGM and NOT the future BN members.
        By continuing these disagreements in public all you and others do is to publish the reason why you think it is a bad idea to join BN.
        Let’s face facts.. You and others don’t have enough years left in your natural life time to replace BN with any other organisation. If you think you do.. I would suggest you declare your intention and go into competition with BN and provide better service as a commercial or charity/volunteer organisation. IF you agree with your Chairman and you know you need BN to progress the needs of the naturists, then it might be a good idea to refer to my first line above.

  40. John Tanner Says:

    The Naturist Future

    Thanks for your debate on the future of the naturist in British society, and of the problems of too many independent organisations. How interesting to see that, as usual with many a strong individual opinion aired, your valid core suggestion of a central and meaningful representation (you suggest BN) for the positive progress of naturism in Britain, is quickly lost in the muddied history of many failed past opportunities.

    The whole world can be focused and interested in the human plight of even a few individuals (e.g. the 33 in Chile) – why – because the situation was immediate and focused and specific to an easily understood and fully recognisable target.
    The human future of those individuals, not their history, mattered above all else.

    Is BN ready to find and publicly announce a specific, easily understood and fully recognisable target for the thousands of concerned individuals who want a recognised naturist future?

    For example, if BN should nationally declare the specific intent of vigorously pursuing, As A Right, every individual’s freedom to sunbathe nude in his or her own garden, then I for one would readily join.

    John Tanner

    • Duncan Heenan Says:

      The right to sunbathe naked in your own garden already exists (so long as it is not done with the intention of causing alarm etc.). I often do it, even though parts of my garden can be seen from outside – I have never had a problem.
      What prevents it happening widely most often is people’s relutance to ’cause a fuss’. A fuss is usually a result of misinformation within the public and police , many of whom think it is illegal or wrong in some way. Complaints and police inteverntion, even if they are dropped later as they ususally are, cause upset as people don’t like conflict.
      In this respect, what is needed is a major campaign of education, starting with the police, but including the general public. For this reason, Naturist Action Group ( http://naturistactiongroup.webs.com/ ) started work on formulating an approach to Association of Chief Police Officers & Ministry of Justice earlier this year, as the project to do so I started within BN 2 years ago had not been progressed (beyond accepting a superficial briush off letter from them). I approached BN to cooperate with NAG in this project. They refused.
      Need I say more regarding the body you are asking to unify the naturist voice?

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Duncan, considering your and your ‘Chairman’s’ comments from yesterday to work with BN and not criticise the current team on what may or may not have been your experience when you were member of the EC, I am disappointed that you continue to take this attitude.
        You are more than welcomed to promote the work of NAG, by all means publish your achievement rather than failures.
        Still out of respect of your experience and age, I would ask you to look towards the positives on what I am trying to do.. that is PROMOTE naturism and inform people of the fact rather than my own views.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      John, In 2002 BN was involved in the change to the Sexual Offences Bill which is available here..
      http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmhaff/639/639.pdf
      Please Ref to Section 3.
      In basic terms, the change meant that it was no longer an offence to be just nude. It becomes an offence ONLY if you INTEND to cause alarm or distress. Before anyone else comments on this.. SOME people within BN and others wanted to take the bill further and still feel the same. However this was a major change and places true naturists on the safe side of the law.
      This link provides you with details of the submission from BN to the English parliament and another to the scottish parliament.
      http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmcumeds/353/353we08.htm
      http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/justice/inquiries/SexualOffences/documents/SO41.BritishNaturism.pdf

      BN is able to make these submissions and representations because it is recognised as the authority on British Naturism with support of the British Naturists.
      People like myself would not be heard as I do not represent any recognised group of people.

      For the future.. BN are working to deliver on a 3 year plan, which is available here.
      http://www.british-naturism.org.uk/mediacentre/files/BN%203%20Year%20Plan%202010.pdf

      Hope this answers your question..
      If you want to know more.. please respond here and I will ask a senior member of BN to provide further information.

      • Colin Hough Says:

        this seems like an excellent example of why we need a strong, central, respected organisation to represent naturism and also a good example of why BN is a good choice.
        I’d let my BN membership lapse, as I rarely got to any BN events, but I’ll be joining again to show my support.

      • Sid Western Says:

        It should also be remembered that hundreds of individuals wrote to their MP’s and the Home Office with regard to the S.O.A and the consultation papers leading up to it. I wrote several letters to my local MP. Tom King, and to the Home Office with regard to “Recommendation 54” and “Setting The Boundaries” I feel that the scale of the individual response to the proposed legislation was also instrumental in the changes which were made to the final document.
        Regards Sid

      • Richard Burnham Says:

        When the sexual offences bill was being put through Parliament, the section of the bill relevant to naturists had more public responses than any other part of the bill. IIRC, there were about 400 submissions from naturists. Many were concerned at the lack of action from BN (as you may find from uk.rec.naturist at the time, which acted as something of a rallying ground).

        BN did rouse itself at the last minute and two officers appeared before the committee and gave a lack-lustre performance, but the sexual offences bill was precisely an example of BN failing to do what it should in a timely manner. The changes were very much a result of campaigning by individual naturists, including letters to MPs and newspapers.
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/apr/12/guardianletters

  41. sandy_beach_cat Says:

    If the leopard really has changed it’s spots, and really is trying to do things for the free range naturist, then I might, just might join. It isn’t all that much, and anything that might make it possible for me to strip off on a beach near here, without having to check the surrounding 4 square kilometers for textile passers by has to be worth a go!
    So Brian, what are you doing for free range naturists in Scotland then?

    • Duncan Heenan Says:

      Actions speak louder than words, and you should only believe an organisation which is prepared to put its money where its mouth is. In this repect, look at BN’s allocation of its expenditure. The vast majority of the money goes on supporting a staff and infrastructure, who seem to me to spend most of their time producing a magazine preaching to the converted… and supporting the staff and infrastucture! Another sizeable chunk of money goes on subsidsing minority sports and social events which the vast majority of members don’t attend, but which are ‘traditional’ and loved by the EC. What is actually allocated for campaigning is petty cash….mere lip service.
      The most recent proof of this is the need to raise a special appeal (officially launched yesterday) to raise the money to re-do the NOP survey of public attitudes, which is now a decade out of date. This should be at BN’s core raison d’etre, and the cash should have been allocated in the budget, not to have a special whip round which will delay it and mean it could end up scaled down to the point where it is meaningless.
      Similarly, earlier this year, BN turned down the request to emply a part-time paid campaign assistant to help the hard pressed Malcolm Boura (voluntary RLO). This was because they said they could not afford it, but they can afford to employ Andrew Welch at £50k per annum, £12k for BN editors, lots of money to staff the office full time plus a full time General Secretary who only gets to the office once a week. If they should claim that all those people are ‘campaigning’, where’s the result? And why was it proposed that a campaign assistant was needed?
      So I’ll believe BN when I se them put their money where theri mouth is. Until then, I’ll continue to plough my own furrow, and so will others.

      • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

        Sorry Kiran, we shouldn’t be pursuing this here but unfortunately if I let these comments of Duncan pass unchallenged some people will assume that he is correct.

        Quite simply he is wrong. I know that the request for a campaigns officer was not turned down. There was no request to employ one immediately.

        There was a request that we should employ one when the necessary planning and preparation had been done and that was agreed to.

        Judith has proposed a volunteers coordinator, an idea which I thoroughly agree with, and that is also being planned for.

        We do intend to employ people in those areas but it is going to be properly planned so that it minimises the impact on our other activities and to maximise the cost-effectiveness. At present I can’t say more.

        The digs about the NOP appeal are uncalled for. If Duncan has been at the AGM he would have heard the reasoning behind making an appeal. All he is achieving is a loss of income and reputation for BN and wasting my time which just makes our work more difficult.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Sandy, please see my response to Duncan and John Above, it also containst a submission to the Scottish Parliament, this has not been acted on yet by the Scottish Legal system which still considers nudity to be illegal and has kept Steve Gough locked up for years…

      BN need people in Scotland to take the lead on this but as far as I know this is a slow process..

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      There are the submissions to the Scottish Parliament (some of which are mentioned elsewhere on this blog) which are aimed at encouraging Scotland to at least move in line with England.

      We list four beaches in Scotland one of which is a recent addition (Balmedie Beach ). As a voluntary organisation, we rely on our members to monitor these beaches and report any problems. Should any problems arise we would tackle the appropriate authorities in much the same way as we have done for many beaches in various locations around Britain’s shores.

      If you have any suggestions for further beaches that could be listed or you think should be made ‘official’, we will gladly assist in achieving this.

      • sandy_beach_cat Says:

        If you wander over to cat’s chat http://www.chatbocks.com/board/index.php and look at location & events, uk beaches, all the ones I know about are on there. You already know about some of them.

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        Thanks for the link SBC. It would appear that we only have one Scottish beach in common in our lists! (Crakaig)

        It will take further investigation as we have to be sure of our facts, but we may be able to add one or to of the others you list to the BN site (even you expressed doubts about Tyneinghame, I note).

        Kearvaig sounds delightful. I cycled out to Cape Wrath many years ago as the ferry can take bikes as I recall – assuming it hasn’t changed… The extreme remoteness of this beach makes it very suitable for naturism on the grounds that you’d be the only ones there, I suspect! (a bit of a cheat really as that could apply to any remote beach, and I suspect often does.)

  42. ACTIVIST Says:

    “My fear is that with pressure from the USA, the religious righteous, influences from the Eastern countries, the UK naturism could suffer”
    You are so right about the religious/Christian. I was on some Christian sites and they are doing EVERYTHING they can to spread their doctrine, which of course includes body shame.

    With Christians/Muslims so determined to stop nudity, we should be more eager then ever to counteract it!

    HERE’s a lot of ideas to get culture to accept nudity. If we can bend culture, then culture will bend the laws in our favor. We can’t change culture by staying quiet.__But, we need to be careful — we can’t cast naturism in a negative light.

    • sandy_beach_cat Says:

      Have you had a look at any of the Christian naturist websites? some of us Christians aren’t ashamed of being naked!

      • activist Says:

        In general most American version Christians are against nudity.
        jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Porno/nudity.htm
        rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45804&Topic=674
        tera.ca/FAQ.html
        alighthouse.com/cap.htm
        hvk.org/articles/0507/50.html
        trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/rinvol7no1/Bare%20Naked%20Christians.htm
        There are countless citations. At least in US, most Christians would want me stopped if I was nude everywhere. Christian naturists are way far outnumbered.

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        The US is especially puritanical and my fear is that, ‘thanks’ in part to the Internet, they are spreading that message to the UK and other English speaking nations.

        The result of the US puritanism is clear to see in the statistics for teenage pregnancy, abortions and STI’s. The more liberal a nation is, the lower are their rates for these issues, with the US at the one extreme, having had ten times Denmark’s rate of teenage pregnancy in the recent past and seventy (yes 70!) times their rate of gonorrhoea! Sadly the UK lies between these extremes at a point commensurate with our attitude to nudity.

        Since most of these US Christian objectors are probably protestant, I guess the words of Pope John Paul II will not carry much weight with them, but here they are anyway:

        “The human body can remain nude and uncovered and preserve intact its splendour and its beauty… Nakedness as such is not to be equated with physical shamelessness… Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person…The human body is not in itself shameful… Shamelessness (just like shame and modesty) is a function of the interior of a person.”

      • sandy_beach_cat Says:

        The beach that I first went naked on (As an adult anyway.) was in Mallorca.
        Mrs SBC was sure that the naturists on it had to be tourists because “The Spanish are Roman Catholic & they wouldn’t do that.” It turns out that what at least some of the Spanish do on their day off, is find a quiet tourist free beach, & either fish off the rocks, or hang out naked with their friends. They binned their laws against public nudity when Franco went. They seem to be in the lower part of the teenage pregnancy tables. (Although I’d caution against treating a liberal attitude to nudity, & a low teen pregnancy rate as being cause & effect.)

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        Collating data for 14 nations including US, Canada, UK, New Zealand, plus 10 others in continental Europe, ranking them for their attitude to nudity based on their laws, their provision for naturism, etc. produces a 98% correlation with these factors.

        I agree, as with any attempt to show cause and effect in social science, caution should be exercised; but few data sets show such a strong correlation…

  43. NUDE BODY | LadyGod1va's Photos & News Blog Says:

    […] If you want to see and read more about my thoughts on naturism please see my latest post at https://ladygod1va.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/british-naturism/ […]

  44. Roy Seager Says:

    I first encountered ‘true’ naturism on a French beach some 35+ years ago. I joined CCBN to see where I could continue to be a naturist on my return. I even become a Regional Rep for a couple of years. I joined Suzanne’s club as it seemed more active than BN – which it is – or maybe from Suzanne’s recent comments may shortly disapear!
    Regretably over all these years I have never got my wife to join in – I think this is a major reason why men join and leave so promptly!
    As BN is/was so lacking in a positive -or to use a phrase pinched from Virgin Boss Richard Branson – ‘Screw it, lets do it’.I decided to keep the money in my pocket.
    Why are people so shy about being naturists? Is the association with people of less than desirable attitudes? I rather feel it is so. Unless we all stand up and be counted we shall remain a small clique. If such large numbers of people who do not seem to be assoctiated with naturism will pose for photos in comparitively public place why do they then all run away? Why will models and well known figures appear on the stage naked?
    After all these years I have given up at 75 any hope that we will see more naturist beaches in the UK or any open naturism elsewhere.
    Good Luck to all – I shall go naked wehen and where I feel happy to do so.
    To blazes with the load of ‘Hide and Chiders’ as PV named them.
    Have a nice day.
    Roy.

  45. Pete Knight Says:

    The system won’t let me reply more than once, so I’m having to respond here:

    “Peter, the revenue gained by BN from each club is so small compared to the whole that it is simply not an issue when it comes to considering that club’s membership of BN.”

    Brian, for each club that is a member there are numerous individual memberships that could be forfeited if BN were to take action, can you find out how many members left as a result of the Kent club being refused membership?

    I admire you for being the company man, but I also know the frustrations you face as an EC member, and I can assure you that it’s not as bad as it used to be, as many of the dinosaurs have left (Some were given life membership at the last AGM I attended, which was one of the main reasons why I didn’t renew.).

    Pete

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      Hi Pete,

      The days when all, or nearly all, members of a landed club are also members of BN, have long gone. Had it not, our numbers would be a lot higher! There is now a sizable number of our members who, like me, are free-range naturists. That doesn’t mean that we will turn our backs on the clubs; that would be foolish, it simply means we have the interests of more than one group to consider – and we do. If all we were interested in were the clubs, why would we expend so much time and effort in supporting the beaches? Why would we run events in non-naturist venues? Why else would we campaign for legal changes designed to allow greater freedom for naturists? Clubs don’t need any of this; we, the free-range naturists do. The free-range naturists that now make up a significant number of BN’s membership.

      By this same token, the members of clubs sometimes go to the beach, they sometimes walk in the countryside, they attend those events. So even if their club is not part of BN, they still need BN and where there are examples of clubs that are not part of BN we still have members in amongst their members.

      In the discussions that I have been party to regarding accepting or ejecting a club or other organisation into/from BN, the gain/loss of revenue has never been mentioned. The decision has been made based upon the verifiable facts and not the rumours, just as decisions are made in a court of law. And just like the courts, the principle is “innocent until proven guilty” – it has to be; no other system would be fair.

      If I am “the company man” it is because “the company” is moving in the direction I think it should. Have you read BN’s three-year plan published earlier this year?

  46. Pete Knight Says:

    I would also like to add that the BN style of campaigning is merely to promote BN itself, it is not, and never has been proactive in campaigning for increased naturist rights. The role of RLO, even when our own John Paine held the post, is predominantly a firefighting role, that is to say the incumbent spends most their time resolving issues where naturism is under attack, and not attacking the establishment for the lack of resources and the poor attitude towards naturists and naturism. To summarise: BN is a defender, whereas a great many disaffected members (Myself included.) wish to see a concerted effort put into twisting the arms of local and national government into recognizing naturism as a legitimate lifestyle, and providing services and facilities for this minority group, as they do with other minority groups.

    BN’s one and only chance to make headway was during the drafting of the SOA (2003), but the then chairman failed to grasp the opportunity, instead allowing a watered down alteration to go through, he was even quoted as saying that anyone naked outside the confines of an approved club should be charged with public indecency (Or words resembling that.), so it’s easy to see why BN isn’t pushing the bounds of acceptance, when it is run by secret squirrel, closet naturists itself.

    After seeing the vast amounts of money squandered on activities that do NOTHING to promote naturism to the wider world I too decided that I could no longer be part of a sinking ship. When I was active within BN, before I realized they were a kamikaze organisation, I recruited a great number of people on the beach days, but what amazed me most was that most of them had never even heard of BN, some of them had been enjoying naturism for many years oblivious to presence of a national organisation, much less an international one! Andrew Welch claims to be doing great work to raise awareness, but his only inroad is to get quoted in newspapers whenever there was an article that included nudity, initially it was to tut-tut at the antics of people like Steve Gough, but these days it is mostly in response to threats to close naturist beaches, or news of irregular activities in the dunes.

    There are certain individuals who have tackled the matter alone, and whilst I admire their courage, I do question their tactics, I feel that people like Richard Collins and Steve Gough have gained notoriety as cranks, but certainly not as leading light of any kind of revolution. Where I do think our energies are better utilized is in joining forces in an organisation that is solely devoted to EXPANDING naturist rights, not merely defending them, and we can work better as a team than as individuals, despite what some people think. Just how much have some done as an individual to advance naturists rights, if you ask them they will tell you it’s lots, but if you went outside their local area no one will ever have heard of them, not even many seasoned naturists, and even Kiran, newsworthy as she is, has made little impact, as an individual, other than within naturist circles.

    The major problem is that there is such wide disagreement on how the battle should be fought, there are the notable individuals and the closet naturists who don’t want the world to know what they do, then somewhere in-between there are people like me who don’t have the courage to walk naked through a town alone, but are happy enough to be part of a group. Sadly some don’t understand the meaning of compromise, they will continue to fight the lone battle based on their personal interpretation of what a naturist is, meanwhile the war is being lost.

    So, do you want to be part of an organisation that fights to slow down the shrinking opportunities for naturists, or one that wants to expand those opportunities?

    Pete

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Pete
      Thanks for taking time out to comment on this.

      I agree with most of your comments where I have any knowledge experience, however I am obviously not in a position to comment or discuss anything that has happened in the past.

      I agree and if you recall my replies to various emails, I suggested that NAG members needs to work with BN as one body but it was stated that would not be possible due to the reasons you mention here and being discussed on the blog by Reg/Brian.

      It is true that a lot of damage is being done by these arguments and they are not likely to end. So how can we work together?

      Just to be clear… I am NOT aiming to be some kind of warrior fighting alone in support of some crusade. I set myself out in public a year ago as a role model to say that there is nothing wrong with naturism. Since then I have answered 100s emails been in discussions with people of many different levels of naturism all around the world. I am encouraged by people who tell me that me being me helps them to shape their own naturism views and experiences.

      The BN/NAG arguments don’t appear to have an end date, so I just place myself out there for anyone to gain encouragement from my beliefs. I cannot do anything more than that.

      Before I published the this post and asked Paul to help me, his response was that this is going to end up with NAG/BN discussion, once again he was right and I just hate that!!

      PS… when are you planning to return to wet/cold England so that I can organise your welcome home party 🙂

  47. Duncan Heenan Says:

    I can agree with much of Kiran’s analysis, but my conclusion may seem a bit cynical to those who have not witnessed BN’s history for the last 30 + years.
    Kiran seems to be at the same stage of consideration I and other were at about 10 years ago, seeing the decline of BN and wanting to do something about it. Rather than just encouraging people to join, we decided to get involved and stand for office. There was a clear mandate for change given by the membership, who voted 3 reformers (John Paine, Reg Barlow & me) in to office. However, once there we were blocked and frustrated constantly by an EC, motivated in large part by personal animosity, which refused to accept that the members wanted BN to change and become a real campaigning organisation. Eventually their ‘spoiling’ tactics won, and we left office rather than waste our time on the lost cause of trying to move BN on.
    There is a lot of lip service paid to change and campaigning in BN, but little real movement utside the dwindling and ageing club fraternity. The vast majority of BN’s money goes on simply maintaining its infrastructure (which exists to maintain its infrastructure…) and to subsidise a few minority sports and social activities which the vast majority of members don’t attend. In contrast, the budget for actual campaigning is so miniscule that the RLO is currently launching a special appeal to re-do the NOP survey ofpublic attitudes to nudity, because BN says it doesn’t have the money to do it. (BN should have the funds to do this core activity). Similarly, BN pays Andrew Welch £50k a year to do little I can see, except make it feel good when looking inwards, while it refused to pay for a part time campaign assistant, because it said it couldn’t afford it earlier this year.
    I feel that organisation(s) are necessary to gain acceptance of naturism, which is why we set up NAG (see website http://naturistactiongroup.webs.com/ ) – OK, so we’re small and only at the start still, but we’ve not given up yet. NAG is not a members organisation depending on numbers for credibiliy; more of a think tank & campaign group.
    BN is not going to change, it has proved that over and over. The membership is going to continue to decline, because it only attracts and retains those who like what it does, and what it does is yesteryear’s thing. If BN were to become a real campaigning force it might be worth joining; but it isn’t that, and never has been.
    Sorry to sound so bleak, but I’ve actually been there and seen past the propaganda. If you, Kiran, really believe your own blog, you should be standing for office in BN, and not just encouraging others to join. Until you get involved yourself, I’m afraid you will (metaphorically) resemble the fat man who tells others to go on a diet.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Thanks Duncan for taking time to comment.
      I was given the same advise by my partner (Paul) but we discussed it and came to realise that there are too many strong characters around and I would not stand a chance where people like yourself failed.

      The only way to make that kind of difference is to be elected as the Chairman.. I don’t even know how the chair is elected!! If someone who has never held an office of political authority can be elected as the PM, one could say that even a non naturist could be elected as the chairman of BN, but I guess the truth is that I would have to serve my time in BN for the next 20 odd years by that time I would have become the stereo type middle aged naturist and no one will take much notice of me 🙂

      I could do Andrew Welsh’s Job (sorry Andrew) but I would have to take over 50% pay cut.

      If BN was on the stock market we could fund a buy out!! 🙂

      As I have said before, to get official recognition, NAG would need to have a population of supporters (being a democratic nation) as a think tank NAG may have good intentions but unlikely to succeed unless supported by another public/member elected body. Similar to myself or Steve Gough or any other lone campaigner.

      • Duncan Heenan Says:

        So basically you are saying that it is easier to wave a flag from a distance than to actually get involved, so that’s what you’ll do? With that as an example I’d be surprised if your appeal drew in many people, especially as it is based moslty on the ‘benefits of membership’ stuff BN is saying about itself anyway.

        Elsewhere you ask everyone to ‘forgive and forget’. How about directing that comment to BN? NAG has made several approaches to BN asking them to cooperate in various areas of common interest to campaign for greater naturist acceptance. Every one has been rebuffed, without even a reason being given. NAG was not set up in opposition to BN, or to criticise BN; but to do what we feel needs doing. We are not a members organisation, so we are not taking members from BN in any way. But BN seems to stick to its ‘not invented here’ view of the world, i.e. anything outside the confines of BN has no relevance to it, and must be ignored.
        I’d love to forgive and forget. I’ve tried, as have others. But it takes two to tango.

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Duncan I’m not sure what you think I can do to resolve problems that you and others have discussed which strong and skilled people like yourself and other members of NAG could not fix whilst serving as members of EC.

        If you think putting myself out in public in support of naturism is sitting on the sideline then I would like to see a lot more naturists advertising their love of the life style we all enjoy from the sidelines even.

        I would happily stand for election if I am allowed but I would have to be voted in, if what you say is true, in that the Chairman is the cause of the problem, then unless he is replaced he would do to me as was done to you! So what is the point of fighting a battle head on that you know you can’t win.

        My way would be to increase the membership of BN with non club members and in due course the membership will be strong enough to demand support for their needs and elect someone who is willing to provide that support.

        I appreciate this is a dream at this stage, but you have to start with an idea and progress it. There is nothing wrong/illegal or underhanded about this method, it is what I see the future of BN, if they don’t adopt the wider membership idea, then they will not have the income to waste on items that you have previously identified.

        It is fair to say, that naturism is not going to die, it might shrink to smaller number of clubs etc, but it has been going on for long enough for it to survive in some form or another!

        I will try and discuss this further with members of EC that I am in contact with and see how they react.

      • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

        Kiran., please stand for chairman. The current incumbent has declared that he will not be standing again. You would get a lot of support, including myself and I am confident several other members of the EC.

        The past 30+ years are not relevant. It is the present membership of the EC that matters and that has changed radically in the last few years. We have a team of people who whilst they do not agree on everything can work together and we are going to make change in a planned and orderly fashion.

      • ladygod1va Says:

        Malcolm Thank you very much for your comments and support. I hope the visitors to this blog take some time to read through the very important facts that you have provided.

    • Duncan Heenan Says:

      It only remains to wish you good luck. I hope you succeed. I really do, because I am not anti-BN, despite what others say about me. My only grouse about BN now is that it claims to be something that it isn’t i.e. an active campaigning organisation. If it were honest in its public claims I could be happy with that, though I do think naturism needs active campaigning.

  48. A Lee Says:

    Great work Kieran. : ) very proud of what u stand for and that someday there will be more to promote naturism for what it is, and not for seedy freaks who take us for granted.

  49. Jim Owens Says:

    I’m not British, but I agree!

  50. Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

    Congratulations Kiran on an excellent attempt to look at the problem that has been dogging (no pun intended) naturism for years; that of falling/ageing membership.
    Just like to correct you on one part of your analysis though; baby-boomers were born between 1947 and 1963, and our numbers are falling as a proportion of UK population.
    Swingers and member organisations of BN that allow swinging, are a problem, and one that should have been tackled long ago. But they are afraid to because that would mean a loss of revenue. The porn industry hasn’t helped either; google naturist and you quickly encounter websites offering porn instead.
    I agree with you, Swingers are not naturists and we should be able to call a spade, a spade. If they care to read Richard Ungewitter’s book “Nakedness,” which is credited with creating naturism, as I have, they will see that on the whole his idea was to right the social ills he saw in industrialised Germany and sex, and free love, was not a part of it.
    But you also touched on the need for BN to have a large membership in order to have more gravitas when speaking to the authorities. In my view, it doesn’t matter how many members BN has, if it does not use that strength effectively, any fee paid to the organisation is wasted.
    Currently BN has an EC of 19 people (or they did when I was a part of it) but only one person charged with campaigning for the better understanding of naturism in a non-naturist world – Malcolm Boura – who was/is very much over worked. And in order to have the proper tools for the job, Malcolm has to raise £5,000 – or is it £10,000 – for a new survey to update the flawed 2001 NOP survey. Surely, this should be a part of BN’s raison d’etre? How else is it going to find out if its campaigning is having any effect or how many naturists there are in the UK with any accuracy.
    Recently, the Naturist Action Group (NAG) wanted to start a dialogue with other naturists, both individual and organisations, about the poor facilities on offer to naturists based in London; a city of 7.5 million people. Yet, the only central London facility for naturists is the changing area to the Men’s Pond, Hampstead Heath. John Paine asked that an article he wrote explaining his argument to be published in BN (the magazine) but allegedly, chairman Michael Farrar vetoed it, while similar articles were published in both H&E Naturist and Naturist Life.
    So you see Kiran, that is why so many people, Richard Burnham, Duncan Heenan, John Paine, Pete Knight and myself among them don’t believe BN is serious about advancing naturism in the UK. It is there to keep it a closed shop with closed thinking. You may have noted that society has changed, but regrettably, too many on the EC have not. That is why its membership is not only getting older, but falling.

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      The EC has many new faces on it since your time Reg. I’m one of them!

      I think the views of the people you list are well known both inside and outside BN…

      If you know of any “member organisations of BN that allow swinging” please report them to us, so we can do something about it. Please don’t simply make such unsubstantiated accusations as a means of besmirching the reputation of BN. At the end of the day, you don’t do your own reputation any good that way.

      • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

        I have made no accusations Brian. Only there were rumours being banded about within the EC, with some of the older hands making noises that it had been going on for years and they didn’t know what to do about it. The problem was the rumours were not backed up by hard evidence, so I admit, it would have been difficult without that.
        You say the views of John Paine, Richard Burnham and the others are well known. Are you sure about that. Have you actually sat down with them and listened to what they have to say?

      • Pete Knight Says:

        Hi Brian

        Can you explain why it took so long for a club in Kent to be thrown out of BN, and after numerous complaints from members, one of those is now on the EC, which may have some bearing on the situation. The club in question had an openly adult room, many visitors witnessed un-naturist like behaviour, yet when the regional rep visited he claims not to have seen anything, funny that!

        BN won’t police the clubs because it gains revenue from them, to expel a club means a loss in club fees and possibly several members. What should happen is that a separate committee, free from interference by the chairman, should adjudicate, not the EC, and most definitely not the chairman dominated management committee.

        Pete

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        Peter, the revenue gained by BN from each club is so small compared to the whole that it is simply not an issue when it comes to considering that club’s membership of BN.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Hello Reg
      Thank you for the detailed response.
      I should have posted earlier but got involved with some stuff that would not wait!!
      For my part, I have only experienced the naturism social media and naturism social discussions for the past year. Before this time, my partner, who is more experienced than me, had led our naturist life away from any clubs or any UK based naturism because he had made the decision that the state and quality of Naturism in the UK was not acceptable to him, having spent a large part of his life in Europe.
      This means that most of my naturist experience has been in Europe, I find it somewhat disappointing to learn that my partner was right, this hurts me more than I can explain. I mean that, he is right, it is much better to ignore UK and just focus on where we can enjoy being ourselves without the dirty, nasty, suspicious looks we get in the UK and the concerns caused by the perverts who think it fun to use naturism to satisfy their sexual desires.
      There is a lot I can write to explain my views but it would be too long for this reply..
      About the accuracy of my statement on baby boomers.. I was brought up to respect my elders so normally I wouldn’t challenge you but this time I have the National Statistics office on my side…
      I would advise you to click on the link I sent earlier and you will find their report that says “Between ages 37 and 50 there is a ‘bulge’ due to the ‘baby boom’ years of the 1960s and early 1970s.”
      There are many different references to Baby Boomers on the web, the years that you ref to are mainly linked to USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. I won’t try to discuss why here.
      In regards to your other comments let me see if I can provide you with some confidence that all is not as bad as you state.
      BN has changed and is changing further still, you need to have a look at their web site and publications to see how. My personal experience is that the EC members are very active and respond to most requests that I have placed in their direction.
      I know you are much more experienced than me, but sometimes it can help to see something through another person’s eyes. I look at the situation this way.. If what you say is true, in that most of the BN membership are club naturists, they MUST support their members, otherwise they would be voted out. If you have an employee, you would not want to see him working for someone else! So that is the situation with them. But at the same time I know that they work outside the clubs too, for example, the naturist beaches they support and do lot of work on are not only used by club naturists, the beach is there for everyone to use, therefore surely it is easy to see that it is everyone (general public) is being supported by BN and yet NOT funded by the public.
      IF we encourage more membership and BN has significant members that are not club members it will be much easier for the EC to provide the necessary service to its non club membership. It would also be possible for non club naturists to be members of the EC, I suspect there probably are some EC members that do not belong to any clubs.
      As I said I believe BN is already doing quite a lot for non club members. I am not a club member and I can discuss my views/concerns with the EC members who are already active and seeking improvements.
      This is probably not the right place to mention this, but just in case someone else claims the idea.. I would like to see BN develop a membership for the modern world by extending its services to the web and calling it SBN (or something like that), like YBN but for Social networking groups. This could be limited membership with lower costs but gaining membership will result in higher influence. The SBN members would benefit through being identified by other naturists organisation as their membership card will act as Naturist Passport. BN will be able to verify the identify of the individual and if they are reported as being anything other than naturists, their membership could be terminated. What do you think BN? Any good? 
      Let me also touch on the article you mention. I did not read it at first and my partner read it and told me that BN are not going to like it because NAG ‘person’ seems to be taking too much credit for the London initiative. You may not see it like that but if that is how it comes across to others then I would suggest it should have been adjusted.
      In the past I have suggested that you and others in NAG could work in support of BN and others, however this is unlikely to happen unless people take time to learn about each other and work with the people that are active now and not dwell on the past too much.
      I would like to see all of us working towards the common aim.. To make naturism more acceptable in the UK. Perhaps I should invite you, your colleagues and BN leaders to a dinner and we can talk about all this over some good wine 🙂

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        SBN – an interesting idea. Perhaps we should talk more about it with yourself to see how it might work. Thanks.

        The campaign for a general naturist area on Hampstead Heath is an example of where BN and NAG are working together. Hopefully it can be the first of many such cooperations, but for it to work we have to foster mutual respect.

        PS: I am an example of an EC member who is not a member of any landed clubs, just one swim.

      • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

        I agree there is no point in arguing over the dates of the Baby-boomer years, so lets agree to disagree on that one. But you wrote:
        “I did not read it at first and my partner read it and told me that BN are not going to like it because NAG ‘person’ seems to be taking too much credit for the London initiative.”
        I don’t know what article your partner read Kiran but it couldn’t have been the same one I read in Naturist Life, which was penned by John Paine.
        It gave full credit to Michael Peacock who started the campaign and to the efforts of Chris Lamb, who represented BN, in giving assistance. It was realised, however, that the City of London Corporation was concerned that the campaign centred on Hampstead Heath. This is why NAG has proposed widening the debate to include other large open spaces in the Greater London area, while Michael and Chris concentrate on getting a fairer deal for naturists at Hampstead Heath.
        I will gladly sit down with members of the EC. The problem is, will they sit down with me and my colleagues, with our different point of view. We have said from the outset that campaigning against each other is a waste of time, but it seems that some people (on both sides I might add) have long memories, and cannot forgive or forget.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Reg, It is very difficult for someone like me to understand what may have happened in the past, but what I do know is that you and a few other ex members of BN have disagreements that have been aired in far too many blogs/discussions on the web. The result is that it leads to people like my partner who is very articulate and supportive of me to step away from being an active UK naturist and question whether we should be getting involved at all.

      Unless people learn to forgive and forget, there will never be any peace, we should work with ‘now’ and learn to work with people even though we know each may have their own opinions.

      This in fighting (between BN/Ex BN members) discourages people like myself and does no good to British Naturism. I would suggest it has to end, how can that be achieved?? I guess if I knew the answer to that I would be working with the UN on the Israel-Palestine problem.

      • Reg Barlow (chairman - Naturist Action Group) Says:

        You would – and be very rich into the bargain – but the only way we can understand where we are now, is by looking at the past and then into the future, to see our possible destination.
        Where BN is heading is difficult to determine; what I can say is that the EC seems to prefer to look inwards, rather than outwards into the wider society.
        Sorry. I’m knocking BN and I promised myself that I’d never to do that because, as strange as it may seem, I agree with you; we need BN or an organisation like it.
        The EC may be less volatile these days, but ‘group think’ is not helpful either. In fact it is worse, more dangerous than one that has – shall we say – lively discussions!
        But maybe it isn’t just BN’s perceived faults that are the problem here. The whole of the naturist community needs to shoulder some of the blame. What is the reason for joining BN if they do not participate in the governance of the organisation by either voting or standing for office? Why is it the RLO (a campaigns manager by any other standard) has to work so hard just to stand still, and work even harder to get the tools appropriate for the job (back to the NOP survey again)?
        We, in NAG, want to work with BN. If you have the ear of the EC then maybe there is a place for you in the diplomatic service after all.

      • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

        Replying to Reg’s post. Thank you for the support Reg but to be brutally frank I can do without it. It is making my role more difficult, not least because of the time I have to spend replying to misleading and mistaken statements. I am not the only EC member working on campaigns. A lot of Brian’s work is an absolutely essential contribution towards it. A significant part of Andrew Welch’s work likewise and just about every member of the EC does at least some. Most beach issues are now being dealt with by regional reps, the regions or individuals and my role has become much more what it should be, providing support to them and arguing the issues at national level.

        The balance is steadily moving towards being more pro-active but most of it is a lot less news worthy than the reactive stuff so it gets reported less. Complex carefully argued letter sent to this or that official of politician is just not the stuff of headlines. Likewise attendance at an important conference on equalities or a seminar at Westminster hosted by the NUJ on restriction on photography and no, it was not me that attended. It is only very rarely that we can say that one particular action produced an identifiable gain but all that activity is in the whole having some success in creating the climate so that we can get the changes that we need. Get the climate right and they will naturally do the right thing and avoid the wrong but some people will of course claim that BN had nothing to do with it.

  51. Paul H Says:

    What a well written and reasoned article LG. You have once again hit the nail very firmly on the head when you say that there is a common misinterpretation of naturism by the general public who often confuse naturism with swinging. Whilst I do not have any problem with anyone who calls themselves a swinger I do appreciate that there should be a clear demarcation between naturism and swinging. In the UK the problem is exacerbated by a number of private clubs who call themselves naturist clubs whilst actively encouraging a more swinger orientated clientele. This only adds to the confusion that anyone new to naturism or wanting to interested in trying naturism for the first time must experience. Will they visit a place where women are likely to be hassled and think that all naturism is characterised by such behaviour? I think one solution is the adoption of a scheme whereby venues can be provided with a “seal of approval” from BN; this will show that a place has naturism as its focus and it will raise the profile of BN in the public eye… the scheme could cover not only venues and events but also public places such as beaches or (I hope) park sunbathing areas.

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      Thanks Paul, this ‘seal of approval’ is already in our three-year plan and covers more than just the issues you raise, e.g. it includes the club being up to date with the latest safeguarding requirements for children and vulnerable adults.

      You are right about the swingers clubs masquerading as naturist clubs, but we also have the problem of swingers websites encouraging swingers to meet at legitimate naturist venues, thus sullying the reputation of such venues. Sometimes this can be a club but sometimes it can be a beach. How can we control these websites? (We are working on this one with various police forces.)

      • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

        I am looking for opportunity to make a complaint to regulators such as Advertising Standards, Trading Standards or the police concerning this sort of business or web site. If you can provide an example that stands some chance of success, please let me know about it. Usually they are very careful to stay just inside what they can get away with.

  52. Richard Burnham Says:

    I was on the BN EC (2004-6) and I saw what went on. I have not been a member since and I have no intention of rejoining. The organisation has set itself up to fail and is duly failing (with an accelerating loss of membership). The ‘old guard’ refused to consider any suggestions or criticism, repelling them with obnoxious personal attacks and blaming everything on everyone but themselves.

    BN was based on clubs, and clubs themselves are also failing. The membership has grown old, and is faced with an insoluble problem. The current middle-aged and elderly naturists joined them expecting an exclusive, private environment with a mostly self-help ethos. But no organisation can survive without a regular fresh intake of young people, and people these days do not want to rough it or commit themselves to membership with people they may not have anything in common with, and they expect to pay for services as they go. The clubs would need to adapt to this somehow to be appealing to younger people, but then they no longer provide what the regulars want.

    I think it is a GOOD thing if there are a lot of organisations providing services to naturists. If there are, then that is a sign that naturism is flourishing even if BN isn’t. The more variety on offer, the more likely naturism is to appeal to a wide range of different people. So, let’s forget a centralised BN and have lots of groups and people offering different services to naturists, independent of membership, as an open market. (When I did think BN could have a role, I thought of it as encouraging exactly this state of affairs.)

    (Declaration of interest – I run http://naco.org.uk, a directory of naturist accommodation. I do this on a non-profit basis because I think it’s a worthwhile thing to do, and a wide variety of accommodation is likely to encourage more people to try naturism. It’s not the sort of thing you’d ever imagine BN doing.)

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Richard
      Thank you for your comment, but I think I may have missed something in my post, in that BN has acknowledged the past and is moving forward with new ideas. What I am suggesting doesn’t restrict people providing services to the naturist society. The aim of this post is to encourage more people to acknowledge their naturist interests and use the facilities such as the one you are providing. If there are more naturists, then you will have more customers.. The problem is in representing the naturists in public and to the authorities to get a better deal.. BN is best placed to do that and if you visit their web site you will see this
      http://www.british-naturism.org.uk/pages/pages.asp?page_ID=482
      There is no point in going over what has happended in the past unless it is still going on. I believe the BN is moving forward and with more’s support it can do more. It’s the old thing about United we are strong, divided we fail etc.
      If you have ideas that you would like BN to consider, then I would suggest you put them forward, you don’t need to be a member to do that. However not every idea can be supported but there is no reason why it can be discussed.

      • Pete Knight Says:

        “There is no point in going over what has happended in the past unless it is still going on”.

        It is still going on, the views of anyone who dissents are fudged or ignored, which leads to members leaving. The EC is toothless while the chairman dominated ‘Management Committee’ calls the shots.

        “I believe the BN is moving forward and with more’s support it can do more”.

        I used to think that too, but once you see through the veneer it all becomes clear!

        “It’s the old thing about United we are strong, divided we fail etc’.

        You can be united in membership, but divided in how the organisation carries out it’s duties to it’s members!

        Pete

      • Richard Burnham Says:

        I have read the so-called ‘3-year plan’, and there is no plan. It is largely vague waffle, much the same as in the document produced around 5 years ago by the same person (you can still find my comments on that online).

        I think the campaigning and legal support functions (such as they are) you should be separate and legally protected against use of their funds for other purposes. I would support such an organisation as, I am sure, would many other naturists.

        If as reported here BN is refusing to cooperate with NAG then I guess nothing has changed within BN.

      • Richard Burnham Says:

        In my reply ‘campaigning and legal support functions (such as they are) you should be separate and legally protected’ should read ‘campaigning and legal support functions (such as they are) should be separate and legally protected’.

      • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

        Replying to one of the related comments.

        There is a ring fenced legal fund with a substantial amount in it. Usually issues are resolve without needing to call on it, for example see my comment above regarding “a couple”. However there have been two allocations of over a thousand pounds in the last few years.

  53. ladygod1va Says:

    Thank you all for the comments so far. I hope you get the chance to click on the BN links to learn about what they are doing to promote naturism in general. We all need to work towards a better understanding of the benefits of working as one.

    If some other people have it their way.. we could end up going backwards through influences and stronger opinions being used by those who have less than healthy attitude towards the naked body.

  54. Howard Anderson Says:

    I think that BN needs to promote naturism a lot more. Currently a large part of BN is a “club of clubs”, irrelevant to the wider acceptance of social nudity.
    On the international scene, the INF does very little to promote naturism, it is a “club of clubs of clubs”, leaving almost all practical work to national organisations, i.e. in its present format it is a waste of time.
    We need a clear focus for campaigning, led by people with ability and the right training. The INF needs to lobby the EU to promote naturism and BN needs to expand on the excellent start that has been made by Andrew Welch and others. We can all do our bit, but a collective effort is much better. Well done LG for your excellent efforts.

    • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

      Please come up to date! BN is NOT just about the clubs; in fact as an officer of BN I have been questioning what the clubs get out of BN membership! The BN of today does more for the general rights of naturists wherever they choose to practice their naturism – on the beach, in city parks (yes it does happen), walking or just in their own back garden.

      BN is an organisation of individual members.

      • Pete Knight Says:

        Oh Brian, I like your spirited defence of BN, but it is indeed a club of clubs, it bases it’s entire naturist ethos around nudity behind closed doors, and only begrudgingly acknowledged free range naturism when it realised that was a growing area.

        When BN begins fighting for public open space for naturists I will consider rejoining, until then my money is with any organisation that will support my aims. As much as I enjoy the social life I cannot survive like a caged animal behind the high fences and barbed wire of the clubs.

        Pete

      • Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

        Peter,

        We are campaigning for more open space and for more acceptance of naturism outside clubs. As I have said elsewhere in this discussion; I sometimes wonder what we do for the clubs!

      • Malcolm Boura, British Naturism Says:

        Pete, that may have been true a decade or two ago but now it is quite simply untrue, and with all due respect I do have a pretty good idea of what BN does, what gets discussed at the EC and how much influence the clubs have. NB I am not a member of any BN club apart from the Mildenhall Swim.

  55. Sid Western Says:

    As an old and long term naturist I was a member of a BSBA club that was a founder member of the CCBN. As such I have always believed in supporting a national organisation. I have, in the past, withdrawn my support on two occasions due to dissagreements with the EC. I think one of the reasons there are so many independant organisations supporting naturism is because many people were dissatisfied with what BN were doing, or not doing, so formed their own organisation. BN membership continues to fall year on year so it would seem a lot of members are still dissatisfied. I think BN is improving very slowly with one or two new initiatives and some of the volunteers are doing a good job.
    With regards to swingers, here in the West Country we have problems with “doggers” on our local beach and dunes. Efforts are being made to reduce this activity but it won’t be easy because the layout of the dunes make it difficult to police effectively. In the 40+ years I have been using the beach and dunes I have never seen any unlawfull activity. In another of your threads it was stated that naturists “have a lack of understanding of the law” when the problem is induvidual police officers using their own predudices instead of the law. In the same thread a BN member said “the equipment of phone and camera is what I have always advocated” Having images of dogging activity on your camera is not to be recommended under any circumstances. More information on the beach activities will no doubt come to light in the near future. It is the BN AGM this weekend.
    In the meantime keep up the good work Kiran.
    Sid

  56. Ben Says:

    I have been a naturist and member of BN for the last 15 years (since I was 15 in fact) and helped set up YBN! This is a great article LG and I hope that people read it and act upon it. BN has it’s faults yes but it also does alot of good and has some people who really want to help progress naturism in the UK – and not just in clubs!!

    The more people that get involved the stronger the organisation can be, so please join and helps us further naturism in the UK!

  57. Martin Says:

    Modern society needs to understand that just being nude is not rude and BN should help promote this notion by becoming more open about naturism.

    The general public seen to think that as naturists we’re all perverts and that naturism equates to having sexual intentions. Many people are suspicious of the goings on behind the closed walls of naturist clubs whilst others think it’s all about naked volleyball/badminton etc.

    Orgasnisations like BN should co-operate with local councils and the police to allow acceptable naturism in more public places and ensure that where there is naturism that it is not of a lewd nature. More public areas and facilities be made available for clothes free leisure.

    I’m not saying here that we should be allowed to walk naked down the highstreets but police officers should understand that the simple enjoyment of being clothes free is not offensive. However, there should be nothing wrong with simply sunbathing naked in a beach or in a public park either.

    Perhaps if more people including families were seen to be enjoying naturism, it would become more acceptable. There’s nothing more liberation that enjoying the freedom of being clothes free in quieter areas of the countryside, mountains or beaches.

    Hopefully, organisations like BN can help society to accept that nude is not rude.

  58. Wolf Simpson Says:

    I am not a Naturist, to self conscious tbh. But what Lady G says hit the mark, there is alot of misconception of a Naturist & the bad press from the Media who cant tell the difference of naturists & sexual deviants like swingers dont help.
    I know that a Swinger naked or not is a Swinger & its not a Naturist, they are after sexual gratification not the enjoyment of just being being naked.
    Any person who is a Naturist & a Swinger should keep them seperate & if not they should be named & shamed by the Naturist Community for putting their beliefs in bad light. I have the upmost respect of those who are naturists & hope the public start to accept their beliefs as the norm & is not a deviant behaviour.

  59. Dan Fell Says:

    Great article. I have been a nudist since my teens, beginning as a closet home nudist and as I got older, venturing out to local clothing-optional areas near my home in upstate New York. However, I never felt sharing my interest with my friends was an option due to the social stigma associated with nudists. Now, at the age of 29, my closest friends are aware of my lifestyle, and while some have expressed a mild curiosity, bone have taken the leap to join me in social nudism. I have attempted on several occasions to organize social events with other “nudists” I have met in online communities but it seems that once they find out that sex is not involved, they move on to other forums. It is unfortunate that as open-minded as people all over the world like to think of themselves, they still attach such a strong taboo to something like non-sexual nudity. As a Christian minister, I find it especially troubling when people use religion as an argument against social nudity. If you are a good person, you are good regardless of what you are or aren’t wearing. Thank you for writing this article. It is people like you who inspire me to continue pursuing this lifestyle and educating others about it’s virtues.

    • ladygod1va Says:

      Dan thank you for your comment, it is good to know that others around the world feel the same way. I have to confess that I do have a secret desire (not so secret now!) to test the New York law about females being allowed topless in public. I know it has been done by some people before as a TV thing but I would just like to see if I can experience walking in the Park and maybe around Town topless. But I suspect it won’t be relaxing and likely to be arrested before too long!!

  60. Brian Taylor - British Naturism Says:

    Wow! Thanks Lady G. As ever, you have hit the nail on the head. The more members we have the stronger we become, not just financially – allowing us to do more – but also in terms of political pressure. Put simply, an organisation of 1 million members carries more political weight than one of 10,000 members. Even so, we are being taken seriously by councils, police and politicians and making progress as a consequence.

    The swingers who call themselves naturists are a constant problem for us and I assume they are the reason for your comment “2.The UK naturist movement still have a seedy association with sexual activities and perverts of one kind or another.” I’m not sure I agree with this statement as I suspect people associate us more with volleyball and hippy culture (equally incorrect, except perhaps the volleyball sometimes).

    An extra note: Don’t forget, for the 16 to 30 age group we have YBN (Young British Naturists) who organise their own events, so you can be free of us old codgers!

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